Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

But I thought John Macarthur was a main staple of your theology? I even went to his study Bible to show the proper context of Revelation 3! Are you saying you disagree with him? Why is Daniel Wallace's opinion carrying more weight, because Macarthur's commentary can HURT calvinism, albeit, unintentionally? I have to agree with the calvinist Macarthur here!

 

John MacArthur is just like Hardsheller, Webdog and Bob Ryan. He sometimes gets it flat wrong.

BTW, there is no official Calvinist position on every Scripture passage. We let the scriptures speak for themselves.

 

WHAT??? you must be kidding.

i thought we were all programed robots....or that is what i'm told

 

WHAT??? you must be kidding.

i thought we were all programed robots....or that is what i'm told


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I can't agree that the Church of Laodicea lacked a single true believer.

In Colossians Paul expresses his affection and zeal for the Laodiceans, and in Chapter 4 sends greetings to the Brethren in Laodicea. I don't know how many years had passed, but are we to assume that every single believer had expired? I don't think so.

The text states that the church was neither cold nor hot. Had it not a single believer, would it not have been cold? Would it not have been a false church, just another center for a false religion, like every other religion that doesn't have Christ?

Laodicea was a church that had gotten far too wordly and had began a drift toward apostasy. Full-fledged apostasy and rejection by Christ would be the outcome should they not turn from their present course. They were in danger of being like those who "went out from us because they were not of us."

In history of our nation we have seen churches and denominations that were once mighty for Christ which have by and large gone wordly and apostate. Some of these today have few true believers; some it seems have none. The call issued to Laodicea should serve as an example to all of us today to avoid wordliness and apostasy and to repent of it wherever it is found.

So what we have here is a church that is not yet forsaken, but will be unless the course is changed. For those in the Church, Christ is pictured knocking, promising sweet fellowship to any who will open to Him. We really shouldn't try to force more into the passage.

 

I love John MacArthur. I believe that he sincerely strives to be faithful to scripture. He was instrumental in my first becoming Calvinist. Reading and listening to his teaching really opened my eyes about charismatic and non-lordship influences in the church that I formerly attended. He influenced me to read the Puritans (which has greatly impacted my thought). I believe that he is truly a man of God.

However, I frequently disagree with him. I no longer agree with his Dispensationalism. I disagree with his views on the Sabbath, the place of the Law of God today, his view of the Kingdom of God, his eschatology, his view of Christian influence upon government, his views on baptism and church government, etc.

But in spite of the differences, I can't help but have tremendous appreciation for his ministry. I wish more would hear and read him.

 

Never is -- now if only we could get calvinists to actually "pay attention to the details" IN the text - the full context rather than the "snippet and duck" approach observed in the case of some here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is an "interesting" rabbit trail.

#1. It is obvious to all that every church has lost souls.

#2. It is obvious to all that John Macarthur was applying the Rev 3 text to "lost souls" (those that are not saved, not regenerate not IN UNION with Christ).

#3. It is obvious to ALL that "UNION with Christ" is not DEFINED as "the sinner ALONE on the inside WITHOUT Christ and Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking and WAITING for the sinner to choose to open the door". (Even Calvinist here choke and sputter when it comes to explicitly dealing with those DETAILS and the subject of UNION with Christ).

#4. It is obvious to the Arminians that the Calvinists are simply trying to find "other ways" not to talk about the specific obvious points above. (Hint for Calvinists: The points above REMAIN true EVEN if someone in Laodicea is saved. )

Get it??


In Christ,

Bob

 

Hmmm - he is sounding better and better all the time. Maybe I need to drop him a line.

Bob

 

In this thread the Calvinist are running away from a number of key facts "in the text". But perhaps THE most glaring and obvious is the fact that EVEN Calvinists have to admit that UNION WITH CHRIST is the KEY to regeneration.

But as Rev 3 SHOWS -- no such UNION takes place until AFTER the sinner - ALONE and on the INSIDE, chooses to OPEN the door!

How tragic that this basic fact - so glaring and obvious so far - "must be ignored" to defend Calvinism!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

A plain reading of the passage indicates it is addressed to an apostate local church and its members.

 

The church being addressed is similar to the church at Colosse, a mix of believers (very few, if any) and non believers (probably most if not all). I liken it to a RCC.

 

Hey Bob

You made a rather unfortunate choice of words here.

Your choice of UNION is misleading. the second half of the verse shows that FELLOWSHIP is the purpose.

One must not yank half a verse out of context and build theology on abused verses.
LLoyd

 

To their credit Calvinist claim that regeneration requires UNION at the very start. NOWHERE in scripture is UNION with Christ described as being WITHOUT Christ.

NOWHERE in scripture is UNION WITH Christ described as the sinner ALONE WITHOUT Christ - and simply having Christ ON THE OUTSIDE knocking and WAITING for the sinner to OPEN so that UNION takes place "HE WITH ME" and "I WITH HIM".

In no case is UNION WITH Christ described as "the SINNER WITHOUT CHRIST" -

Obviously.

The fact that you would ask for this obvious point to be brought back again and again - is much appreciated.

I recommend that all will do it as often as possible.

Ok?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I apologize - this was off topic. I am really trying. Sorry.

 

It is true that Revelation 3:20 is speaking to an apostate church, one in which many backslidden believers had to be disciplined by the Lord.

It is also true that God is speaking to Christians so they will again open their heart's door/life to their Savior Jesus Christ and return to a closer intimacy with Him.

This only proves the free agency of men and women even in a tenuous state of grace as to whether they will return to the Lord or will continue to disobey Him.

The same spiritual principle runs thoughout Scripture that God waits for sinners to open the door of their lives to Him. Jesus does not
approach human beings, under either covenant with a forced entry [Isaiah 63:10 & I John 5:10].

For example while Castro is a political despot in this 21st century in Cuba, we never want to portray Jesus as a spiritual Autocrat especially with such basic truths as found in John 3:16.

Rev. Dr. Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

Let me ask you a question. Can a person be saved by having faith in a created being? This was the belief about Jesus in Laodicia, as well as in Colosse (Col. 1:15-20). Jesus was not speaking to apostate, backslidden believers, He was speaking to a cultish church of non believers (while there may have been some believers in it). The message of Jesus wanting fellowhip with ALL men, is indeed universal, however.

 

The text also says that He wished they were either hot (living in faith ) or cold (outright denial) than luke warm (pretending to be saved, i.e. the RCC doctrine). If He were addressing a church of believers, He would not, and could not "spew them out of His mouth". It is obvious the church at Laodicia was a lost, confused bunch that Christ was intendinging to reach.

 

Jesus is the only Mediator between God and humankind as to eternal salvation [I Timothy 2:5-6. Jesus was and is Divine and everlasting.

No one can be saved through another created being!

God through the Apostle John was correcting things in each of His seven churches. These were viable centers of Divine worship and adoration. The vast majority of believers were truly 'born of the Spirit.' The Lord, as I hope you know, does not chastise/discipline false--non-Christians. The Lord IS speaking to backslidden Christians.

It seems we agree that the Lord is not discrimitory as to who or how many sinners can be included among the people of God.

The Greek word in I Timothy 2:4 a is the word meaning 'wishes' that '. . . all men (and people of the other gender) become saved.'

This, of course, does not blend too well with Five Point Calvinist's erring views of the Lord God.

Dr. Berrian