Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

Webdog,

Many learning Christians make the mistake of saying that the Lord was going to 'spew' backslidden Christians out of the Kingdom and away from Him.

What God is saying is that He will set aside the usefulness of this church if they do not return to the vibrant faith they once enjoyed.

This is why John writes these words.

Review again Revelation 4:15-16.

Regards,
"Ray"

 

Heb 12 tells us that - For ALL whom God loves He reproves and disciplines. We see this in John 15 with the trimming of the branches as well as in Heb 12 with the children of God being disciplined.

The principle has moved to one that is general - and not some special dispensation/treatment that only applies to the Laodiceans. Those whom God loves He disciplines (disciples) Heb 12, John 15, Rev 3:19

And in keeping with that general case we have Christ continuing to speak – to the SAME group and showing that this is a personal – direct message..

Here we see the case of those NOT in UNION with Christ – NOT in fellowship with Christ. As even some Calvinists will admit – regeneration is the first point where a person IS in union with Christ.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1533.html#000005

The case is made that the same “anyone” that is instructed to “open the door” is the SAME “anyone” that WILL receive the benefit of immediate fellowship with Christ (I will dine WITH him and he WITH Me). Here is picture “union WITH Christ” – following as a result of the choice to open the door.

Many reject the idea that those being addressed in Rev 3 could possibly be OUT of union with Christ”. They shrink from thinking that the sinner is “alone and without UNION with Christ” on the INSIDE while Christ is on the OUTSIDE! The reject this because “Calvinism” needs to avoid this “inconvenient detail” of scripture..

Yet we see “in the text” that each individual must HEAR and OPEN the door and then to each ONE that does – the RESULT will be that immediate fellowship that is promised. This is not a case of those ALREADY in fellowship with Christ and “inside the church” being promised that they WILL be in fellowship if they only open the door. Rather it is a promise to the condemned of Vs 17 that THIS action will result in the INDIVIDUAL being IN fellowship The propitiation (atoning sacrifice) of Christ provides the currency in "suffering" owed by all lost humanity - but God holds application of that currency by His OWN rules - to "Whosoever Will" saying "I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come IN" Rev 3:21.

Fortunately Calvinists like John MacArthur seem to “get the point” about UNION with Christ NOT being defined as “the sinner alone on the inside WITHOUT Christ while Christ is on the OUTSIDE knocking and waiting for the sinner to open the door”

Here's what John Macarthur (calvinist) says

From MacArthur's study Bible comments on Rev 3, page 1997.


The conditions are clear - God is not fire-hosing us with payment of our debt. Rather the blood of Christ - and suffering for our sins is carefully treasured - held for us to claim "IF we CONFESS our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to CLEANSE us from ALL unrighteousness".

It could not BE any clearer.


Salvation is “individual” the remedy is “individual” the people IN the church of Laodicea are in fact “individuals” with the spiritual condition described, and in need of taking the “action” described – individually – to obtain the “individual solution” described IN the text in “individual” terms.

Note – the “individual terms” continue –

It is NOT just the Laodiceans that will enjoy God's company and sit with Christ - but ALL who open the door.

At times – the Calvinist approach is to imagine “the door of the CHURCH” is closed to Christ and all on the inside of the church are “without Christ” – all on the inside are “spiritually blind, wretched, poor, miserable and spiritually naked” without the robe of Christ. Then in that view – one of the members is asked to “let Christ into the church” since He is outside the door of the church knocking. But in that case the “result” would be that only to that One – is fellowship restored – the REST would remain – spewed out – miserable and lost since the language of the solution shows that “I with HIM and HE with ME” is the nature of this 1-to-1 solution.

Calvinism’s attempted rework of the text is not possible.

 

Doing so - reduces the text to a "marketing ploy".

"IF anyone hears and OPENS" makes it look like a generous wide open offer. But in a lawyereeze style warp of the text it becomes "IF anyone can get to me -- and I am paralyzing all so no one can - then I will give them a billion dollars".

In other words the Calvinist ploy is to insert a "game" into the text so that what APPEARS to be an invitation to the lost - to become saved and enter into UNION WITH Christ -- is nothing more than a gimmick. A marketing phrase made to LOOK generous!

The text does not say "IF ANYONE CAN HEAR" NOR does it say "TO THOSE who have been SELECTED to hear" -- all the Calvinist gimmicry is missing.

It just says "To anyone who HEARS AND OPENS" and the RESULT of that ACTION taken by the one who is ALONE and WITHOUT CHRIST on the INSIDE - is said to be UNION with Christ.

"HE WITH ME... and I WITH HIM".

Impossible to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

Notice that being WITH Christ follows that ACT of OPENING.

Notice that Christ does not LIMIT those for whom He is standing and knocking. The one ALONE and WITHOUT Christ on the INSIDE must hear AND OPEN.

The choice is obvious.

So God sends the Holy Spirit to "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"John 16

There is NO point made in Rev 3 "To those ABLE TO HEAR I call out"

But the Calvinist dodge is to INSERT the idea of ABLE into the text as if SOME will not hear and open because they are NOT ABLE --

Indeed - if one were to cling to Calvinism at all costs that is what we would have needed to read IN the text of Rev 3 "WHO IS ABLE".

Christ says of the wicked lost "You say you SEE - your sin REMAINS".

It is not that they are not ABLE to hear the convicting voice of God in John 16 who CONVICTS the world or of Christ in John 1 who coming into the world "Enlightens EVERY MAN" -- it is that they choose NOT to do anything about it. They choose NOT to open the door.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here again you have lost the argument on your own grounds.

If the one on the inside is ENABLED by regeneration and the FIRST step in regeneration is UNION WITH CHRIST (by definition) then the picture of the sinner ALONE on the INSIDE and WITHOUT CHRIST can NOT be the STARTING point of Regeneration.

Regeneration would have CHRIST ON THE INSIDE with the sinner and the two IN UNION. Christ then ENABLING the sinner to go and open the door.

You yourself have just cast this picture such that BOTH the rengerate AND THE NON-regenerate have the SAME situation of being ALONE on the INSIDE with Christ on the OUTSIDE KNOCKING!!

This means you have a non-regenerate sinner whom you claim is ABLE to HEAR and OPEN while another non-regenerate sinner (one whom God has not arbitrarily selected) is NOT ABLE to hear and open.

You have stepped into a place that most Calvinists do not go - which is that the ENABLING is happening in your model BEFORE REGENERATION and APART from UNION with Christ!!

You have desribed a condition of ENABLEMENT for someone who is NOT YET REGENERATE - that the ARminians have ALSO BEING arguing for! And I am sure you claim that God is the one who ENABLED them (as to the Arminians).

Do see what you have done?

Once you have accepted the obvious prinicple of God's enabling BEFORE UNION with Christ - and BEFORE regeneration - you have Arminianism!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Are you arguing that we HEAR and are ENABLE and ACT and OPEN the door - BEFORE regeneration KJB?

If so - you are arguing the Arminian POV.

IF you argue that God's ELECT are the only ones DRAWN and ENABLED -- but NOT via regeneration --

Then you have an odd mix that is neither Arminian or Calvinist.

It is really that simple.

In Christ,

Bob

 

KJB - your "problem" is that you have accepted too much of the scripture in Rev 3 for Calvinism. This is leaving you stradled on the fence.

The same thing happens when a Calvinist accepts too much of Matt 18 - more than Calvinism will tolerate.

 

KJB - my three questions to you are the following.

#1. Do you AGREE with Calvinists that regeneration BEGINS with UNION with Christ for the lost sinner?

#2. DO you AGREE with Calvinists that it is REGENERATON that ENABLES the sinner to CHOOSE Christ - to ACT?

#3. Do you still AGREE WITH YOURSELF that in the Rev 3 scenario (of Christ on the OUTSIDE and the sinner ALONE on the inside) is the case for ALL (both the elect and lost). But as you say - for the elect God will have them hear and OPEN while for the non-elect they simply remain out of UNION with Christ UNNABLE to respond to Christs pointless knocking?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Dr. Ray is right about this. Thank you Dr. for providing some sound scholarship on this particular passage.

 

Here we see the case of those NOT in UNION with Christ – NOT in fellowship with Christ. As even some Calvinists will admit – regeneration is the first point where a person IS in union with Christ.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1533.html#000005

The case is made that the same “anyone” that is instructed to “open the door” is the SAME “anyone” that WILL receive the benefit of immediate fellowship with Christ (I will dine WITH him and he WITH Me). Here is picture “union WITH Christ” – following as a result of the choice to open the door.

Many reject the idea that those being addressed in Rev 3 could possibly be OUT of union with Christ”. They shrink from thinking that the sinner is “alone and without UNION with Christ” on the INSIDE while Christ is on the OUTSIDE! The reject this because “Calvinism” needs to avoid this “inconvenient detail” of scripture..

Yet we see “in the text” that each individual must HEAR and OPEN the door and then to each ONE that does – the RESULT will be that immediate fellowship that is promised. This is not a case of those ALREADY in fellowship with Christ and “inside the church” being promised that they WILL be in fellowship if they only open the door. Rather it is a promise to the condemned of Vs 17 that THIS action will result in the INDIVIDUAL being IN fellowship The propitiation (atoning sacrifice) of Christ provides the currency in "suffering" owed by all lost humanity - but God holds application of that currency by His OWN rules - to "Whosoever Will" saying "I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come IN" Rev 3:21.

Fortunately Calvinists like John MacArthur seem to “get the point” about UNION with Christ NOT being defined as “the sinner alone on the inside WITHOUT Christ while Christ is on the OUTSIDE knocking and waiting for the sinner to open the door”

Here's what John Macarthur (calvinist) says

From MacArthur's study Bible comments on Rev 3, page 1997.


The conditions are clear - God is not fire-hosing us with payment of our debt. Rather the blood of Christ - and suffering for our sins is carefully treasured - held for us to claim "IF we CONFESS our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to CLEANSE us from ALL unrighteousness".

It could not BE any clearer.


Salvation is “individual” the remedy is “individual” the people IN the church of Laodicea are in fact “individuals” with the spiritual condition described, and in need of taking the “action” described – individually – to obtain the “individual solution” described IN the text in “individual” terms.

Note – the “individual terms” continue –

It is NOT just the Laodiceans that will enjoy God's company and sit with Christ - but ALL who open the door.

At times – the Calvinist approach is to imagine “the door of the CHURCH” is closed to Christ and all on the inside of the church are “without Christ” – all on the inside are “spiritually blind, wretched, poor, miserable and spiritually naked” without the robe of Christ. Then in that view – one of the members is asked to “let Christ into the church” since He is outside the door of the church knocking. But in that case the “result” would be that only to that One – is fellowship restored – the REST would remain – spewed out – miserable and lost since the language of the solution shows that “I with HIM and HE with ME” is the nature of this 1-to-1 solution.

Calvinism’s attempted rework of the text is not possible. </font>[/QUOTE]Bob this is not your best defense of your erroneous Arminianism. You should stick to passages that provide ammunition rather than holding on to the empty bag you keep trying to pull the rabbit out of with Revelation 3:20.

It simply doesn't fly.

 

Dr. Ray is right about this. Thank you Dr. for providing some sound scholarship on this particular passage. </font>[/QUOTE]This is the exact opposite of what another calvinist (John Macarthur) has to say about Rev. 3. Who is right, Macarthur or Berrian?

 

Webdog,

You need to understand that John MacArthur and Ray Berrian and Hardsheller and Webdog are all fallible human beings.

All of us will make mistakes in interpreting scripture.

In this case Berrian and Hardsheller are right and MacArthur and Webdog are wrong.

Rev 3.20 is not about Calvinism or Arminianism. It is about the Church at Laodicea in the first century.

 

You say "Berrian and Hardsheller are right, Macarthur and Webdog are wrong". Do you have facts and scripture that support this, or is this just an empty allegation? Who has made the mistake in interpreting the scripture? I believe the context and cross reference supports Macarthur. I know it is about the church at Laodicea, but it indirectly relates to the c/a position of depravity, election, atonement and grace as a whole.

 

Simply Look at the context of the Scripture Webdog.

Rev 1:4 John: To the seven churches in the province of Asia. Grace and peace to you from the One who is, who was, and who is coming; from the seven spirits before His throne;

In Chapters 2-3 Jesus Calls for six of the churches to repent from certain sins within the church. Only Philadelphia escapes this call to repentance.

Why then do you think the word picture in 3:20 is the exception to the rule in Chapters 2-3? It simply cannot be proven that this is the case.

What scriptural evidence do you have that conclusively proves that Jesus is not talking to the Laodicean Church but to lost people behind a closed door? There is none.

Holman Hunt's painting of this verse from the 1800's entitled "The Light of the World" is more responsible for the erroneous interpretation of this passage of scripture than any other one factor I can find.

This passage is about the Church at Laodicea not about lost people accepting Christ. It is about Christians who have quenched the Spirit within coming back into full fellowship with Christ.

It's really that simple.

 

First I would like to point out that all "churches" are not Biblical. Can you think of any denominational "churches" where the members do not believe in faith in Jesus Christ for salvation? I can.

To know the geography of Laodicea helps. As John Macarthur points out, nearby Hierapolis was famous for its hot springs, and Colosse for its cold, refreshing mountain stream. But Laodicea had dirty, tepid water that flowed for miles through an underground aqueduct. Visitors, unaccustomed to it, immediately spat it out. The church at Laodicea was neither cold, openly rejecting Christ, nor hot, filled with spiritual zeal. Instead, its members were "lukewarm", hypocrites professing to know Christ, but not truly belonging to Him. (Matt. 7:21) Like the dirty water in Laodicea, these self-deceived hypocrites sickened Christ. Revelation 3:20 only makes sense then, that Christ is on the outside "knocking" waiting for the church at Laodicea to open the door. This phrase makes no sense if the church at Laodicea was a church of believers with Christ on the outside, as the church is the body of Christ. If they only opened the door, they could partake of the "supping" with Him, as He is the bread of life (Luke 22:30, Mark 14:25, Matt. 26:29).
Jesus also says He will never leave us nor forsake us. For Jesus to be on the "outside" of the door implies He is not inside our hearts. This has nothing to do with fellowship with believers. Macarthur wrongly states that rather than allowing for the common interpretation of Christ's knocking on a person's heart, the context demands that Christ was seeking to enter this church that bore His name but lacked a single true believer. Christ cannot enter the church unless He enter's the hearts of the non believers in the church.

 

I would say that all churches mentioned in the New Testament started off as being "Biblical Churches." Now it is true today that not all churches are Biblical but you could not say that of the churches mentioned in the NT.

All of them had problems but they all had True Believers in them.

MacArthur is simply wrong on this passage of scripture.

Jesus does say that He will never leave us nor forsake us.

John also said in 1 John 2:27-28

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him ABIDETH IN YOU, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall ABIDE IN HIM.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, ABIDE IN HIM; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

The Holy Spirit is given to every true believer at salvation. The HS resides in every true believer from that point on. He never leaves us.

But as John points out in verse 28 we have to abide in him or else be ashamed before Christ at his coming.

Paul said in Thessalonians that we should not quench the Spirit thus emphasizing the same thing John is saying.

These Christians in Laodicea had so quenched the Spirit of God within them that they no longer were Abiding in Him as John warned in 1 John 2:28.

The picture that is presented in Rev 3:20 is one of this spiritual aloofness that the Laodiceans have cultivated within their church. Christ desires to come back into the fellowship of the church and 'sup' with them. The Laodicean Christians hold the key to whether that will happen or not.

To make this passage talk about Salvation is adding to the Simple Meaning of the Text.