Being slain in the Spirit?

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:

Whew...when some folks arrive in heaven they are going to be so shocked they will want to turn right around and leave as they came! Joyfully,

Mike

I see you totally ignored my Scriptural refutations, such as in Acts 20:7-14??

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DHK,

Many will refute scripture if it goes against their way of thinking or their lifestyle.

I have a good question, I am surprised you hadn't thought of it, my Brother...

Wonder why when the Spirit lit upon Jesus when He came up out of the water in John 1 that he was not knocked backwards? Just a thought...

 

[music4Him]

Quote by standingfirminChrist:
------------------------------------------------------------
Wonder why when the Spirit lit upon Jesus when He came up out of the water in John 1 that he was not knocked backwards? Just a thought...
-----------------------------------------------------------

John 1:29-34
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Because it says He will baptize with the Holy Ghost also. Would'nt that be like the same power touching the same power?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

an immovable object meeting a unstoppable force?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:


John 1:29-34
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Because it says He will baptize with the Holy Ghost also. Would'nt that be like the same power touching the same power?

The real and more legitimate questions to ask are these:

1. Why didn't those surrounding the event all start rolling (in the aisles), that is down into the River Jordan?

2. Why didn't the same people all of a sudden break forth speaking in tongues?

3. Why didn't they all roar like lions and bark like dogs?

4. Why wasn't there a great out pouring of the Spirit so as to bring a "laughing revival?" Why wasn't there great hilarity and laughing when Christ was baptized?

5. Why wasn't everyone jumping up and down with hundreds and thousands of "Amens" "Hallelujahs," "Praise the Lords" "Yes Jesus" etc, etc. I don't read anything like that happening. Everything was so subdued. I wonder why that was?? In fact, how many times can you find Jesus laughing in his three year ministry on earth? Can you find even one recorded instance??

6. Why wasn't there a great number of people dancing in the streets (or water) and shouting?

7. Why wasn't all the chaos and confusion so characteristically present in Charismatic churches present at the baptism of Jesus?

8. And very, very, important (since this is the topic of the thread) why oh why wasn't there anyone slain in the Spirit. What a great ommission by the Holy Spirit. Not one person slain by the Spirit. Why would that be? Perhaps there was another spirit that did the slaying?
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

If we had lived in those times we probably would have worshipped Him in our hearts as we do now. I think just our following Jesus everyday in obedience signifies a certain kind of devotion and adoration without entering a church door.

The focus of Jesus' baptism was not a 'Sunday Worship Service' but was in keeping with His future teaching for us to follow in His steps. We baptize people. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, this was a confirmation of Jesus formal entry into His public ministry among sinners and saints.

I believe even before this baptism, Jesus was on earth in full union with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The dove was a visual for those gathered to see and better understand what was happening. The voice of God the Father portrayed the unity of the Godhead.

The purpose of the baptism was as noted above. First, to focus on Jesus and His Divine Being and also an example for us also to baptize those who follow Jesus.

Jesus did not get baptized by water to have those gathered--to be slain in the Spirit. God sovereignly does this not to all in an Assembly of God church only those who He needs to minister to in this way.

Your superlatives like laughing, confusion, speaking in tongues, and rolling into the Jordan River are merely 'hate words' of a man who disbelieves in the 'gifts of the Spirit,' as clearly set down for all to study and understand. You have the problem with the Word of God while we simply explain it for others to consider.

If you want a solemn service then the Roman Catholic Church would be the red star church, while a controlled Baptist or Independent Church or an Assembly of God church, by your standard, would be much less spiritual.

Wherever the Holy Spirit moves and ministers is His sovereign right without your permission or mine. Would you agree?

. Dr. Berrian

DHK, you said, 'The real and more legitimate questions to ask are these:

1. Why didn't those surrounding the event all start rolling (in the aisles), that is down into the River Jordan?

2. Why didn't the same people all of a sudden break forth speaking in tongues?

3. Why didn't they all roar like lions and bark like dogs?

4. Why wasn't there a great out pouring of the Spirit so as to bring a "laughing revival?" Why wasn't there great hilarity and laughing when Christ was baptized?

5. Why wasn't everyone jumping up and down with hundreds and thousands of "Amens" "Hallelujahs," "Praise the Lords" "Yes Jesus" etc, etc. I don't read anything like that happening. Everything was so subdued. I wonder why that was?? In fact, how many times can you find Jesus laughing in his three year ministry on earth? Can you find even one recorded instance??

6. Why wasn't there a great number of people dancing in the streets (or water) and shouting?

7. Why wasn't all the chaos and confusion so characteristically present in Charismatic churches present at the baptism of Jesus?

8. And very, very, important (since this is the topic of the thread) why oh why wasn't there anyone slain in the Spirit. What a great ommission by the Holy Spirit. Not one person slain by the Spirit. Why would that be? Perhaps there was another spirit that did the slaying?'

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If we had lived in those times we probably would have worshipped Him in our hearts as we do now. I think just our following Jesus everyday in obedience signifies a certain kind of devotion and adoration without entering a church door.

Then perhaps others should take that suggestion as well. Do the walls of a church building give one licence to act as if they are "mad"?

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
And they do, don't they???

The focus of Jesus' baptism was not a 'Sunday Worship Service' but was in keeping with His future teaching for us to follow in His steps. We baptize people. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, this was a confirmation of Jesus formal entry into His public ministry among sinners and saints.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The Father's testimony of Christ was that He was well pleased.
The Charismatic's testimony is that they are well pleased in their ability to: speak in tongues, ability to roll down the aisles, to laugh with "holy laughter," their ability to heal all that come to them except those that don't have the faith, their ability to pick up snakes, their ability to bounce up and down, etc. etc. Their testimony is not in pleasing Christ, but rather being pleased in their experiences upon which they dwell.

I believe even before this baptism, Jesus was on earth in full union with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The dove was a visual for those gathered to see and better understand what was happening. The voice of God the Father portrayed the unity of the Godhead.

Perhaps, but where was all the "holy laughter" and speaking in tongues, etc., of those Charismatics standing around him?

The purpose of the baptism was as noted above. First, to focus on Jesus and His Divine Being and also an example for us also to baptize those who follow Jesus.

No doubt; but where were the holy rollers? Why not any record of people rolling into the Jordan and speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, falling over backwards. In fact, why didn't Jesus or his disciples practice that? I guess they weren't spiritual enough were they??

Jesus did not get baptized by water to have those gathered--to be slain in the Spirit.

But why not? I thought you believed in the gifts of the Spirit. Didn't Jesus have any? What about his disciples? Or weren't they for that day and age? Maybe if they weren't for that day and age, they are not for this day and age either.

God sovereignly does this not to all in an Assembly of God church only those who He needs to minister to in this way.

You mean God sovereignly gives the gifts of the Spirit, which he did. But why didn't he give the gifts of "laughing, and rolling down the aisles into the Jordan, and being slain in the spirit, etc. Why don't we find the apostles practicing these so-called gifts?

Your superlatives like laughing, confusion, speaking in tongues, and rolling into the Jordan River are merely 'hate words' of a man who disbelieves in the 'gifts of the Spirit,' as clearly set down for all to study and understand. You have the problem with the Word of God while we simply explain it for others to consider.

These are not hate words. These are serious things for you to consider. Consider why they are not mentioned in the Bible? Why they are not practiced in the Bible, Why they are, in fact, anti-Biblical? Perhaps they are initiated by another spirit, and not the Holy Spirit. Consider the source.

If you want a solemn service then the Roman Catholic Church would be the red star church, while a controlled Baptist or Independent Church or an Assembly of God church, by your standard, would be much less spiritual.

The Catholic Church is akin to a cult that doesn't preach the gospel. I was raised in it. Unfortunately there are many Charismatic churches that are no better as far as cultish is concerned.Many of them have all the marks of a cult.
The Roman Catholics have another authority--Tradition.
The Charismatics have another authority--experiential revelation.
Catholics (as all cults) take some teachings to an extreme (Mariolotry)
Charismatics take some teachings to an extreme--baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues.
Both do not have the Bible as their final authority.
Both have a "different way" of salvation (salvation of works--RC vs. salvation of experience where in many cases tongues becomes essential.)

Wherever the Holy Spirit moves and ministers is His sovereign right without your permission or mine. Would you agree?

It is not a matter of permission. Your question is wrong.
Is the Holy Spirit of God limited in what He can or cannot do?
And the answer to that question is: Yes, He is limited.
He is limited by His nature. He cannot do anything contrary to His nature. For example he cannot lie, though many who speak in tongues lie.
And he cannot do anything contrary to his Word. Thus if the Bible teaches that tongues have ceased the Holy Spirit would never do that which is contrary and operate against it. That which is seen as speaking in tongues is of some other spirit, not the Holy Spirit. God doesn't act against His Word. Yes, God is limited.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Quote by DHK:
-------------------------------------------------
1. Why didn't those surrounding the event all start rolling (in the aisles), that is down into the River Jordan?

2. Why didn't the same people all of a sudden break forth speaking in tongues?

3. Why didn't they all roar like lions and bark like dogs?

4. Why wasn't there a great out pouring of the Spirit so as to bring a "laughing revival?" Why wasn't there great hilarity and laughing when Christ was baptized?

5. Why wasn't everyone jumping up and down with hundreds and thousands of "Amens" "Hallelujahs," "Praise the Lords" "Yes Jesus" etc, etc. I don't read anything like that happening. Everything was so subdued. I wonder why that was??

6. Why wasn't there a great number of people dancing in the streets (or water) and shouting?

7. Why wasn't all the chaos and confusion so characteristically present in Charismatic churches present at the baptism of Jesus?

8. And very, very, important (since this is the topic of the thread) why oh why wasn't there anyone slain in the Spirit. What a great ommission by the Holy Spirit. Not one person slain by the Spirit. Why would that be? Perhaps there was another spirit that did the slaying?'
-------------------------------------------------

Because..........
Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

......the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Not landing on the ones standing around.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Because..........
Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

......the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Not landing on the ones standing around.

Are you saying that the presence of the Spirit was upon Jesus only? The presence of the Holy Spirit was no where else, didn't affect anyone else? I suppose then it was all for nought, all just a show.
For the Bible says about the Holy Spirit:
"He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment"
The very ministry of the Holy Spirit is to ocnvict of sin. The baptism of Jesus and His accompanying miracles convicted others of His Messiahship and of their sin. His presence was there. If His presence was there, why weren't the so-called "charisma" there? Because they never existed in the first place. Roaring like a lion is pure foolishness.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"I see you totally ignored my Scriptural refutations, such as in Acts 20:7-14??"

Well, lets just take a look.

Acts 20:7-14:

"20:7
Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."

So far so good.

But regarding this "spoke the message until midnight" business, that reminds me of a lot of pentecostal/charismatic meetings I've been in where the "usual" time frame was about 2 1/2 hours or so, but God had other ideas. God moved in...spontaneous ministry took place...and the meeting was still going on hours after it usually would have ended.

Those who had to leave were free to, of course, and those that stayed simply continued being blessed by Gods goodness.

How many times would you say that traditional style church services, such as Southern Baptists, go on spontaniously hours beyond the normal time?

I've spent much time in those kind of churchs...as a matter of fact my "2nd" church fellowship right now is a wonderful Baptist Church...but it basically never happens.

That meeting in Acts was still going on until midnight...interesting.

"20:8
There were many lamps in the upper room where they were gathered together.

20:9
And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead.

20:10
But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, "Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him."

20:11
Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed.

20:12
And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted."

Praise God! \o/

Its so wonderful that we serve a living God who still does miracles at His sovereign discretion, is it not?

And He still does today.

(are you sure you want to use this passage to prove your point? This sounds like your basic charismatic meeting so far, brother!)

"20:13
Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos, there intending to take Paul on board; for so he had given orders, intending himself to go on foot.

20:14
And when he met us at Assos, we took him on board and came to Mitylene.

Wonderful passage of scripture. It has blessed me many times during my christian walk.

Are there any other passages you would like to go over?

God bless,

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

I woke up and read this at 2:30 A.M. I will go strait to the point in answer to your questions.

You said, 'Then perhaps others should take that suggestion as well. Do the walls of a church building give one licence to act as if they are "mad"?

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
And they do, don't they???'

Yes, this is what Paul was correcting in verse 23. Paul preferred to preach so the sinners would be converted to Christ 24-25.

The two churches that I attended did not do this as you claim. I am sure there are places where they do not follow Biblical teaching, as you say.

.

You said, 'Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The Father's testimony of Christ was that He was well pleased.'

Yes, what is your point?

.

You are saying this. 'The Charismatic's testimony is that they are well pleased in their ability to: speak in tongues, ability to roll down the aisles, to laugh with "holy laughter," their ability to heal all that come to them except those that don't have the faith, their ability to pick up snakes, their ability to bounce up and down, etc. etc. Their testimony is not in pleasing Christ, but rather being pleased in their experiences upon which they dwell.'

This is a lot of untruths just to try to discount the true people of God who have the 'gift of tongues' and note who were given it by the Holy Spirit, and not by some other spirit as you arrogantly and unjustly proclaim.

.

You said, 'Perhaps, but where was all the "holy laughter" and speaking in tongues, etc., of those Charismatics standing around him?'

Try to think before you write. Jesus was at the very beginning of His ministry not at the conclusion of it. THINK! Was the Holy Spirit given to the apostles and seekers then? No. The disciples received the Spirit of God on the evening of His resurrection. The laity received the Spirit 50 days after Jesus ascended into Heaven. How would you have expected them to 'speak in tongues' before the advent of the ministry of the Holy Spirit? They had Jesus on earth and there was no need for tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Scholars think before they write!

.

You said, ' . . . but where were the holy rollers? Why not any record of people rolling into the Jordan and speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, falling over backwards. In fact, why didn't Jesus or his disciples practice that? I guess they weren't spiritual enough were they??'

Especially you first phrase about 'holy rollers' is what Christians sometimes hear from unsaved people. Christians do not elevate and dramatize the error of other Christians. Women are sometimes characterized as 'drama queens;' I did not know there were those of the opposite gender who did the same thing.

We try to place the things of God in the best light, to the glory of God, and not dismantel the Kingdom of God by our careless montra. Again, you have been answered Biblically. The Spirit was not given unto 50 days after Jesus'ascension;Pentecost means 50th.

.

You said, 'But why not? I thought you believed in the gifts of the Spirit. Didn't Jesus have any? What about his disciples? Or weren't they for that day and age? Maybe if they weren't for that day and age, they are not for this day and age either.'

Correct me if I am wrong. Did you one time tell us that you taught theology somewhere? You should have known these answers about four years after you were saved. Where have you been!

.

You said, 'You mean God sovereignly gives the gifts of the Spirit, which he did. But why didn't he give the gifts of "laughing, and rolling down the aisles into the Jordan, and being slain in the spirit, etc. Why don't we find the apostles practicing these so-called gifts?'

Put this in your spiritual notebook or permanently in your mind. The Spirit was outpoured on the Day of Pentecost. When? After Jesus was on His throne in Heaven after His ascension.

.

You said, 'These are not hate words. These are serious things for you to consider. Consider why they are not mentioned in the Bible? Why they are not practiced in the Bible, Why they are, in fact, anti-Biblical? Perhaps they are initiated by another spirit, and not the Holy Spirit. Consider the source.'

I never heard one Christian 'laugh in the Spirit' as you allege. This is slander of Christians--toward all of us. Did not King David dance before the Lord? Would you have tried to make him sit quietly in the pew holding down his joy in the Lord? I have seen Christians so happy in the Lord that they danced before Him in church, but I am sure it was not in your denomination. Does not the Scripture say, 'Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty?'

.

You said, 'The Catholic Church is akin to a cult that doesn't preach the gospel. I was raised in it. Unfortunately there are many Charismatic churches that are no better as far as cultish is concerned.

Many of them have all the marks of a cult.
The Roman Catholics have another authority--Tradition.
The Charismatics have another authority--experiential revelation.
Catholics (as all cults) take some teachings to an extreme (Mariolotry)
Charismatics take some teachings to an extreme--baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues.
Both do not have the Bible as their final authority.
Both have a "different way" of salvation (salvation of works--RC vs. salvation of experience where in many cases tongues becomes essential.)

Your lie about Pentecostals believing in 'experiental revelation' is a lie out of Hell. All of their 'gift of interpretation' always agree with the Biblical teaching and edify the congregants. Just because some 'nut' taught you false ideas to turn you away from your brethren, is no excuse to continue to lie to the truth.

I did not need to go through eight years of formal theological study to have some confused Christian have to tell me that R.C.'s place tradition above Biblical teaching.

.

You said, 'And the answer to that question is: Yes, He is limited.
He is limited by His nature. He cannot do anything contrary to His nature.'

No you are wrong. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit does everything They want to do otherwise He is not God. Simple, Theology 10l for learners.

.

You said, 'For example he cannot lie, though many who speak in tongues lie.'

Basic Theology 101. We all understand that God cannot do anything against His own holy and just nature.

.

You said, 'Thus if the Bible teaches that tongues have ceased the Holy Spirit would never do that which is contrary and operate against it. That which is seen as speaking in tongues is of some other spirit, not the Holy Spirit. God doesn't act against His Word. Yes, God is limited.'

'Those who 'speak in tongues' do not lie and are genuine people for the most part, while some are misguided. I am more than sure there are several in your church who have things wrong in their personal theology. That is why we have pastors/Elders to straighten them out. You only presuppose that the gifts have ceased in the first century or perhaps around 70 A.D., because some nut told you it was because the Jews refused Christ and you believed their non-sense. Study, my friend!

The two prophets will be 'prophecying' during the Great Tribulation as duly noted at a future time in Revelation 11:3 which only proves that the 'gifts of the Spirit' rightly used are for this continium of this Age of Grace.

In Biblical college I had to rethink some of the things I had been taught by well meaning pastors. It is called growing up in Christ and maturing in the faith so you and I do not spread error about our precious Lord and Savior. Try to be open to truth rather than 'ram roding' through the N.T. about what you are not mature enough to understand. And this is saying it with all Christian kindness.

As Tam has told you, you are on very dangerous ground attributing the things of the Holy Spirit to something other than the true God. Oh, an thanks for making me aware that the Holy Spirit cannot lie. That sure was a new one for me to learn.

.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'Are you saying that the presence of the Spirit was upon Jesus only? The presence of the Holy Spirit was no where else, didn't affect anyone else? I suppose then it was all for nought, all just a show.
For the Bible says about the Holy Spirit:
"He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment"
The very ministry of the Holy Spirit is to ocnvict of sin. The baptism of Jesus and His accompanying miracles convicted others of His Messiahship and of their sin. His presence was there. If His presence was there, why weren't the so-called "charisma" there? Because they never existed in the first place. Roaring like a lion is pure foolishness.'

Read my post above and maybe with the help of the Spirit of God, you will be able to figure this out all by yourself without your erring Elders at your church.

I didn't know you had 'lions' in Canada, but we give you credit for knowing they make noise at times.

.

 

[tamborine lady]

DHK, just for the record, I have been going to full gospel churches for over thirty years, of and on, and I have never heard anyone bark like a dog, roar like a lion,or any other animal sounds you might think of.

I also have never seen anyone rolling in the isles, or "flopping" around on the floor, or any of the other bazarre things tha you have suggested.

As far as Jesus when He was baptised by John: When Jesus was baptized in water and the dove came down, Jesus had not yet started his ministry,and another reason is that the comforter (Holy Ghost) only came after Jesus left.

That is why Jesus went away, so the comforter could come. Then in the upper room after he ascended into heaven, the Holy Ghost came, and THEN, people were baptized in the Holy Ghost!!

Ray is right, you need to think before you type!


Just in case you missed it yesterday:

I'll tell you what is amazing to me! All these people who are full grown, mature men and women saying boldly that this is not of God, and this is of the devil, etc.

There is no room for saying that! You can say you disagree, and that's O.K., but to label something that God calls good in the bible is putting yourselves on very dangerous ground.

Jer 7-24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

THAT, my friends is when "backwards" is bad!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
Because..........
Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

......the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Not landing on the ones standing around.

Are you saying that the presence of the Spirit was upon Jesus only? The presence of the Holy Spirit was no where else, didn't affect anyone else? I suppose then it was all for nought, all just a show.
For the Bible says about the Holy Spirit:
"He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment"
The very ministry of the Holy Spirit is to ocnvict of sin. The baptism of Jesus and His accompanying miracles convicted others of His Messiahship and of their sin. His presence was there. If His presence was there, why weren't the so-called "charisma" there? Because they never existed in the first place. Roaring like a lion is pure foolishness.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that the presence of the Spirit was upon Jesus only? Yes thats what the bible says!

The presence of the Holy Spirit was no where else, didn't affect anyone else? On the day Jesus was baptized as far as I understand it....no one else was touched except Jesus.

I suppose then it was all for nought, all just a show. No it was not for nought, because those things had to happen for a reason.....do you know why?


For the Bible says about the Holy Spirit:
"He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment"
The very ministry of the Holy Spirit is to ocnvict of sin.
Yes but the Holy Spirit does do other things.

The Holy Ghost spoke though David or that is to say by the power there of.
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The Holy Ghost will speak through those in the last days who are still around after the gospel has been preached to all nations.
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Zacharias prophesied after being filled with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,.....
Oooooh but wait this was before the upper room. I believe the HG can do what He wants. Just showes there is no set way on how God can move.

The HG reveals things to us.
Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
*This was when Jesus was just a babe.

(Then you have this side trail to go along with the scripture about Zach and Simon.......
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) But this might be another debate.)

The Holy Ghost will be our teacher and bring things to our rememberance of what the Lord has said to us. But also Jesus said he had to go away so that the Comforter could come. The Holy Ghost also comforts.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

But Jesus said he needed to leave so He could send the Holy Ghost. So when all the people who were gathered around the water and standing on the banks that day...probely didn't get touched yet. No telling what happened after Pentecost though.

 

[tamborine lady]

Quote by DHK:
-------------------------------------------------
( "part B" of question 5 ) In fact, how many times can you find Jesus laughing in his three year ministry on earth? Can you find even one recorded instance??
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Look at the following scripture:

Luke 10-21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

The definition of rejoiced in the greek is:

In Strongs concordanceSearch for 21 in KJV) agalliaw agalliao, ag-al-lee-ah'-o

from agan (much) and 242; properly, to jump for joy, i.e. exult:--be (exceeding) glad, with exceeding joy, rejoice (greatly)

Don't you think there may have been some laughter there?? Can you rejoice greatly without a few laughs thrown in??

I think our Lord was a very happy man. Probably laughed a lot when He could get away from th e scribes, pharisees, and hypocrits!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

I forgot to include this in my previous post...

"Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
--There was a great emphasis on preaching and teaching the Word of God."

Of course there was. Thats the way it should be.

And every pentecostal/charismatic fellowship I have ever been a part of has preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and taught the truths found in the word of God from the scriptures.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

TamborineLady posted...

"Luke 10-21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

The definition of rejoiced in the greek is:

In Strongs concordanceSearch for 21 in KJV) agalliaw agalliao, ag-al-lee-ah'-o

from agan (much) and 242; properly, to jump for joy, i.e. exult:--be (exceeding) glad, with exceeding joy, rejoice (greatly)

Just thought that was worth repeating.

"agalliaw agalliao, ag-al-lee-ah'-o, from agan (much) and 242; properly, to jump for joy, i.e. exult:"

"to jump for joy"

To "jump for joy".

Interesting.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[DHK]

I see I touched a nerve with our resident Charismatics. The main contention seems to be one that is somewhat heretical--the Holy Spirit was not given or not present or operative until after the baptism of Jesus or until Pentecost, or some variation of that statement. But is that true.

One of you mentioned David "jumping for joy," but apprently it must have been without the Holy Spirit, because He was not yet given.
Let me remind you that the Holy Spirit is the second person of the triune Godhead. If the Holy Spirit was not present before the baptism of Jesus God was not present. Are you all atheists, saying there is no God?
What did David say when he repented of his sin?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
--AAH! But there was no Holy Spirit, was there?? Who is the one spouting this heresy anyway?

Let's look at the New Testament now:
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
--No Holy Spirit??

The Angel appeared to Zecharias, and said, concerning John:
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
--But there was no Holy Spirit before Jesus was there?

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him []bin the spirit and power of Elias[/b], to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
--Was the Spirit of Elijah the Holy Spirit or another spirit?

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
--Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, even before Jesus was born!! Wonders never cease do they?

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
--Zecharias had to get in the act as well. He also was filled with the Holy Spirit, and also prophesied.

Luke 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
--Zecharia's testimony of John

Luke 2:25-27 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
--The Holy Spirit used this aged man, Simeon.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
--Was the power to heal and to cast out demons given by the Holy Spirit or not? Was the Holy Spirit with them or not?

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Luke 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luke 10:18-19 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
--What power did these 70 disciples have!! Was the power of the Holy Spirit evident or not? Or was it of another spirit? Was this before Pentecost or after? And yet you say the Holy Spirit was not yet given????

So I ask again: Was the presence of the Holy Spirit there, at the baptism of Jesus? Yes or No?
Was Jesus the only one that was affected by the Holy Spirit's presence? Yes or no? If he wasn't the only one affected, why weren't the others affected in the same way that Charismatics are so affected today??
DHK

 

[music4Him]

DHK said:
So I ask again: Was the presence of the Holy Spirit there, at the baptism of Jesus? Yes or No?
Yes, the Holy Ghost has been here since in the beginning.

Was Jesus the only one that was affected by the Holy Spirit's presence? Yes or no? Yes, if you mean at His baptizim, but of course the HG also by your scriptures touched certian few also. But I think it says they were walking uprightly with God and the HG was "on them" or "filling them".

If he wasn't the only one affected, why weren't the others affected in the same way that Charismatics are so affected today??
DHK
Well this is just a opinion and I could be wrong but what comes to mind.... the babtizm of Jesus was before his crucifixion and resurection ergo no blood bought forgiveness so not everyone could attain this type of touch yet unless they like the few that were touched/filled? As with the scriptures you posted Simon, Elizibeth,Zacharias.....they did walk uprightly. But its also true some people Jesus forgave (after his baptizim) of their sins before he died on the cross. (Man sick of palsy Matt 9:2, Woman who anoited Jesus feet Luke 7:48)

"why weren't the others affected in the same way that Charismatics are so affected today??"
Depending on your idea of being affected.....well my reasoning could be wrong on this also, but the people watching Jesus being baptized were still under the law were they not? Had they heard the good news yet? Were they walking uprightly? It don't say and we wern't there so thats something we can assume with what we know by others that lived in that day and what the bible says. BTW, If you are useing the word "affected" the other way then just to let ya know......I'm not trying to artificially assumed to impress others.

But then on the day of Penecost seems to make me think some there were pretty excited.

BTW, I wonder if anyone has gotten so excited that they passed out? Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Interesting debate going on.

music4him has brought up a good point. Has anyone gotten so excited that they passed out?

I think if one checks medical records they will find the answer to be yes.

Excitement causes adrenaline rushes. These can affect people differently.

This would bring up another question... is it possible that all these 'slain in the Spirit' experiences are caused by excitement of the service and not the Holy Spirit itself?