Between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection

Oh, I dunno. I think He preached a couple of sermons, kinda' on the order I posted almost 2 1/2 years ago, which I shall copy here. (Incidentally, that thread is still open for the benefit of Rippon.) [Wink!]

Here is almost exactly what I posted then (with a couple of Language Cop's spelling corrections).

Ed

 

His body was in the grave; He was with the Father.

 

Good fairy tale! I agree with Marcia, He was with the God the Father.

Luke 23:43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John Gill's exegesis:

Ver. 43. And Jesus said unto him, &c. Jesus immediately answered him, though he said not one word to the other that railed at him, or to the multitude that abused him; and promised him more than he asked for, and sooner than he expected.

Verily I say unto thee, today thou shall be with me in paradise; "in the garden of Eden"; not the earthly paradise, nor the church militant, but the future place, and state of the happiness of the saints, even heaven, and eternal glory, which the Jews frequently call by this name; see Gill on "2Co 12:4" and is so called, because, as the earthly paradise, or Eden's garden, was of God's planting, so is the heavenly glory of his providing and preparing: as that was a place of delight and pleasure, so here are pleasures for evermore; as there was a river in it, which added to the delightfulness and advantage of it, so here runs the river of God's love, the streams whereof make glad the saints now, and will be a broad river to swim in to all eternity: as there were the tree of life, with a variety of other trees, both for delight and profit, so here, besides Christ, the tree of life, which stands in the midst of it, are an innumerable company of angels, and the spirits of just men made perfect: and as the inhabitants of that garden were pure and innocent creatures, so into this paradise shall nothing enter but what is righteous, pure, and holy: and whereas the principal enjoyment of man in Eden was conversation with God, and communion with him, the glory of the heavenly paradise will lie in fellowship with God, Father, Son, and Spirit, in beholding the face of God, and seeing him as he is: and this is the happiness promised by Christ to the penitent and believing thief, that he should be here; and not only so, but with him here, which is far better than being in this world, and than which nothing can be more desirable: and which, when enjoyed, will be for ever: and this he was to enter upon that very day; which shows, that Christ's soul did not descend into hell, locally and literally considered, or into the "Limbus Patrum", the Papists talk of, to fetch the souls of the patriarchs thence, but as soon as it was separated from the body was taken up into heaven; and also, that the souls of departed saints are immediately, upon their separation from the body, there; which was the case of this wonderful instance of the grace of God; and shows the swiftness of the soul, or the velocity of angels in conveying it thither immediately: and this agrees with the sense of the Jews, who say {b}, that

``the souls of the fathers, or patriarchs have rest, and in
a moment, immediately enter into their separate places, or
apartments, and not as the rest of the souls; of whom it
is said, all the twelve months the soul ascends and
descends, (goes to and fro,) but the souls of the fathers,
"immediately, upon their separation", return to
God that gave them.''

Some would remove the stop, and place it after "today", and read the words thus, "I say unto thee today"; as if Christ only signified the time when he said this, and not when the thief should be with him in paradise; which, besides it being senseless, and impertinent, and only contrived to serve an hypothesis, is not agreeably to Christ's usual way of speaking, and contrary to all copies and versions.

 

Study out what the terms "Sheol" and "hadies' mean. They do not just mean grave and never have. The embody both the physical place where the body lays, as well as the spiritual abode where the soul dwells in the afterlife. Now here is the interesting part, both are always describe as the person 'decending' into ... and never ascending. Even Jesus stated that He had not yet 'ascended to the Father', and though I do agree that this is in reference to the woman wishing to cling to him and not let him leave again we must also deal with the fact of Jesus own words, that being "He has not yet ascended to the Father".

 

Luke 16:

22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.


This is about the most information we have on Hades/Sheol being an afterlife. Is this parable of Christ just that or literal? By the way, Jews still believe they will go to Abrahams Bosom to await resurrection. So there might be something to it.

 

Actaully there is much more but this portion of scripture personifies the argument better and is localized to a single point of reference.

Just a Note: Many who hold that Christ went to the Father, also hold to a particular place that the OT saints were held in till His coming and then they would ascend to the Father, then you have those who don't but believe even the OT saints were in heaven.

A problem I see with the latter is that their sins were not removed, only covered according to Hebrews. Thus you have a picture of a a very muddy person having placed upon them a white full-length white coat (fur, for those more exotic ) over the top of their filth (never removing it only hiding it). Can this stand before Holiness and justice? No. The maring must be removed or the object itself must be destroyed.

But the point being debated isn't man but Jesus and since Jesus Christ was sinless and paid for our debt on the cross did he go down into sheol or go up to be with the Father?

 

There is more on Sheol yes in the OT. This is all I could find while drinking my first cup of coffee :laugh: .

I am currently trying to get everything straight for myself as to the differing word use of Sheol, Hades and Gehenna and also the Lake of Fire. My growing up on the KJV, I only saw Heaven and Hell in the text. Once I moved to an NASB last year I was pretty confused by sheol and hades.


Here are some verses I know of that show some information on the question.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (New American Standard Bible)

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Where is the prison? This in the only place where Tartarus or Tartaroo is used in the Greek. Could also actually refer to Hell but describing a strict punishment therein. Where ever it is, Christ went there.

1 Peter 4:6 (New American Standard Bible)

6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Preached to the dead, where? Hades, Hell, Sheol ? Are these three places or 1 place that serves three purposes?

Also what is the concept of Abraham's Bosom? If Lazurus was good and died and went to the same place as Abraham how could he actually see and speak to the rich man being tormented? Or was this just a parable with only a meaning? But why name someone and say " a certain" rich man? Christ used rather specific terms.

I know that Christ descended somewhere but I still have a little trouble understanding where that is also.

I hope I'm helping somewhat by asking some specific questions. :thumbs:

 

Very good. Very thorough. AMEN! Just like the book says.

 

What about when he said that he had not yet ascended?

 

I think that meant he had not yet ascended bodily. The bodily ascension is the all-important one because it was shown visibly and foreshadows believers having their bodies in heaven one day (though not right after death).

 

Thanks for explaining. I've heard people that hold to your stance and I always wondered how they reconciled that. Makes sense.

 

Hi, Tater! Many believe that the reference to Christ having descended refers to the incarnation - descending from heaven to earth -- and/or his body going into the grave after the crucifixion.

Also, although the view above about Jesus descending to Sheol is one view, another very popular view is that this passage in 1 Peter is about the Spirit of Christ speaking through Noah when Noah was warning the wicked before the Flood.

Comment from the NET Bible:

I agree with the 2nd view, as does the NET Bible. My pastor also takes this view - he's preached on this a few times and has given 4 views, I think, of this passage.

 

Sheol and Hades are two different words but one and the same place which was understood in that time period as the "place of the dead" or also known as the spiritual 'underworld'. It is a place where all the dead people (living spirits) go and it is comprised of mainly two types of compartments. One is the good and the other the wicked, the godly and the ungodly. Here is something I posted a while back when Marcia and I were discussing this very same thing:

What you give here is the same as those Greek scholars listed above have stated as shown again below:

This one is actually speaking of those whom the Gospel was preached to 'and are now dead'. The judgment being refered to here was the physical death all men have a part in (even believers) but though dead in the flesh they are alive in the spirit as God intended. Otherwise if you take the above to mean 'the dead in hell' what you have is those who died in sin and without faith, having a second chance to be saved after they died to be saved.

Yes, they are all one and the same place. We typically think of hell as it is now. One place with one compartment and that is where the sinners go awaiting their judgment from the Throne.

 

IF it was a parable it was the ONLY parable in which Jesus used names and not just an imaginary name but the name of a known person, one who had died and come back.

Is Abraham's bosom a metophor for God? No it can not be. Where else can or do we see such a usage in scripture for such a claim find settlement? Answer: nowhere. It could also be asked; Is Abraham also a metaphor for God because the rich man was pleading with Abraham for any mercy that could be given. The rich man was a Jew and cried out his 'father' Abraham, and by doing this he was trying to establish a line of natural dencent whereby Abraham would be bound by law to help. Abraham even acknowledges this claim by calling him 'son' but Abraham gave no rebuke or judgment but simply restated what has already transpired. (paraphrase - you got what you sought after and Lazarus got what he was seeking after) but besides this there is also a great gulf.. IOW - even if someone desired to it is still impossible to grant such a request.

When people died, did they go to be with Abraham?
That is what Jesus stated. Since Abraham is called the father of [our] faith the rendering here would only make sense to epitamize the meaning of Lazarus being a child of God. Why? Because we can assume from culture and the Law that the rich man was also a Jew and therefore IF salvation was according to the flesh then both Lazarus and the rich man would have been together. However we see Lazarus being with Abraham who was saved (declared righteous) by faith but the rich man was not with Abraham but seperated from him in a place that was reserved for those NOT of God or better God's children. This is why the rich man appealed to Abraham (not God) as being one of his children or natural decendants.


Here is something else to ponder when considering even the word "paradise" such as when Jesus told the thief on the cross "this day you shall be with me in paradise" (but he did not say specifically Abrahams bosom).
We actaully find that the word 'paradise' is used only in conjunction with where God's people are at rest. Such as - The Garden of Eden, the abode of saints in hades/sheol, and finally with God Himself in glory. Why do I say the "Garden of Eden" Because 'paradise' can and does refer to and mean a 'garden'. The Garden was a place of peace and rest but Adam and Eve were tossed out, why? Sin.

Sheol/Hades - This particular aspect regarding the previous place of the OT saints is in like manner, is a place of peace and rest. Yet those saints, while at rest, are also still awaiting their true redemption/redeemer in whom they have placed their trust. These OT saints are accounted as righteous by faith but were still retaining their sins under the covering of animal blood till the True and Eternal Lamb is slain and so while still having their sins remain could not yet come into God's glory and holiness. The book of Hebrews states their sins remained because the blood of animals can not 'remove' sin but only cover it up for a time. And after the death and resurrection of Christ there is/was no more need for this place because all men could rightously and legally be with and before God the Father in which they have abtained their rest and peace. They could now enter into their promised rest which was only to be found in Christ Jesus and this could only be fulfilled at His death and resurrection. So then is Pauls statement about paradise being in the 'Third Heaven' also correct because that is where it now is - the promised place of rest and peace of God's people (at least till we get our new bodies.

 

What do we do with 1 Pet 3:18-19?

Isn't Scripture clear on the issue?

 

Is this to me?? (I'm think I'm being slightly paranoid here but oh well)
Or, is this addressing the OP?

 

OK, so the impression I'm getting is that the OT saints and faithful since the beginning had not yet ascended to Heaven but were awaiting the resurrection in a safe area of Hades/Sheol. Christ came and emptied it out and brought them to Heaven and that place no longer exists.

Is this correct?

 

To the OP. But to anyone, my friend. :thumbs: