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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 15, 2022.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

    2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

    3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8?

    4) What does "no man can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit" mean? (1 Corinthians 12:3).

    5) Does choosing to seek God and trust in Christ make salvation dependent on man and not on God? Romans 9:16

    6) Does Christ making it possible for all men to be saved mean He does not actually save all who are saved?

    7) Does the "from our point of view" dodge really resolve the conflict over when we were chosen, after we believed or before creation?

    8) Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice? (Revelation 3:20, Joshua 24:15, Hebrews 3:7-8, 2 Corinthians 3:5)

    9) Is Calvinism's only err the cart before the horse sequencing of choosing some individuals for salvation then sending Christ to die as a ransom for all?

    10) Do Arminians err when they put God's choice of individuals after they believe?

    11) If many are invited but few are chosen, then what condition precluded the rest?
     
    #1 Van, Jun 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Are the 5 doctrines of grace found in the bible or not?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    By not accepting God's grace solely as a free gift. Romans 6:23.
     
    #3 37818, Jun 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Is the T found in scripture? Nope if said to apply to all people at all times.
    Is the U found in scripture? Nope, if said to apply to individuals chosen for salvation.
    Is the L found in scripture? Nope, if Christ dying as a ransom for all people is denied.
    Is the I found in scripture? Nope, if God crediting our faith or not is denied.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    That would mean our election to salvation is conditional, rather than unconditional! :)
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1 Corinthians 12:3
    Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. ​

    I believe the idea is that if a person says or thinks Jesus is accursed, they are not proclaiming something in accordance with the "Spirit of Truth." Likewise, no one can actually have Jesus as "Lord" unless they have been baptized spiritually into Christ by the Holy Spirit.
     
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  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Election based upon the will and purposes of God period!
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is why every name starts out in the book of life. And only those who believe will overcome and not have one's name removed per Revelation 3:5. 1 John 5:4-5.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Dirty little secret: Many are called (invited) but few are chosen is a verse (Matthew 22:14) missing from the knowledge base of those teaching falsehoods.

    Which points of the TULIP miss the mark?
    Is the T found in scripture? Nope if said to apply to all people at all times.
    Is the U found in scripture? Nope, if said to apply to individuals chosen for salvation.
    Is the L found in scripture? Nope, if Christ dying as a ransom for all people is denied.
    Is the I found in scripture? Nope, if God crediting our faith or not is denied.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is #1, Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

    John 4:35
    “Do you not say, ‘There are still four months, and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I tell you, raise your eyes and observe the fields, that they are white for harvest.

    Matthew 9:36-38 (NASB)
    Seeing the crowds, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and downcast, like sheep without a shepherd. Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. “Therefore, plead with the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”

    There would be no harvest of lost people unless that were able to respond to the milk of the gospel. The request is not for more beams of "irresistible grace" to compel people, but for more workers to witness. :)

     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

    1 Peter 2:10
    You once were not a people, but now you are God's people. You were shown no mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    If individuals had been chosen before creation, they would always have been a people chosen for God's own possession.
    If individuals had been chosen before creation, they would always have received mercy unless you think election to salvation is not an act of mercy.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8?


    1 Corinthians 12:3
    Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. ​

    I believe the idea is that if a person says or thinks Jesus is accursed, they are not proclaiming something in accordance with the "Spirit of Truth." Likewise, no one can actually have Jesus as "Lord" unless they have been baptized spiritually into Christ by the Holy Spirit.


    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ​

    I believe the idea is that salvation by grace is the gift of God, and is accessed through or by way of faith, provided God credits that faith as righteousness.

    So yet again, the verses cited as supporting the pre-salvation "gift of faith" actually teach salvation is accessed through faith. Just as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 demonstrates, individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Romans 5:1-2
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    5) Does choosing to seek God and trust in Christ make salvation dependent on man and not on God? Romans 9:16

    I believe the answer is "NO" because salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or does things (i.e. runs) to be saved, but upon God alone. The second and third soils of Matthew 13 put their faith in the gospel but God did not choose to credit their faith, and therefore they we never saved.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    6) Does Christ making it possible for all men to be saved mean He does not actually save all who are saved?

    I believe the answer is "NO" because Christ accomplished two separate victories, (1) His sacrifice provides the means of salvation for all humanity, those to be saved, and those never to be saved, 2 Peter 2:1. But more to the point, when God chooses an individual based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and transfers them from the domain of darkness into Christ's kingdom, the consequences of their sins and sinful state are taken away, they are forgiven, washed with the blood of the Lamb.

    All this phony baloney about Christ not actually saving everyone saved is absolute nonsense.
     
  16. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

    There were no wedding garments for the good. Thus the good were cast out.

    Or perhaps the bad? Matthew 9:12-13

    "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

    Is it the bad that did not have a wedding garment? Obviously they were furnished guest, so when the bad arrived, they were provided a wedding garment. It was someone who thought they were fine the way they were. Those who think they have everything are not the chosen. Somehow many will show up in their own righteousness, then wonder why those in God's righteousness are looking at them with a weird expression.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, Unconditional Election of Individuals for salvation is obviously false doctrine. Why all these references to non-germane passages? 2 Thessalonians says individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Romans 5 says our faith provides our access to God's grace. Did you say why many are invited but few are chosen? Nope.

    What you did was ask vague questions about unreferenced passages. The parable of the wedding feast is found in Matthew 22:1-14. The parable teaches that many are invited, but few are chosen. Even though a person might hear the gospel and affirmatively respond, like the second or third soils of Matthew 13, it is still up to God to choose whether the person is clothed properly with faith.

    As far as Matthew 9:12-13, the passage actually supports conditional election. Sacrifice refers to rote adherence is the Law's requirements for sacrifices, which means nothing, but rather God looks into the person's heart to see his love for others produces mercy.
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The soil in Matthew 13 is not related at all to the marriage of Matthew 22, yet you scoff at Matthew 9.

    We are talking about the many called, but few chosen.

    Matthew 13 happens after the Second Coming. It does not relate well to the fulness of the Gentiles. That is why many have issues with the doctrine of Salvation when trying to insert Matthew 13 into the doctrine of Salvation.

    It may have worked during the ministry of Jesus, prior to the Cross, but not post Cross, the church age.

    No one is half saved. No one is a third saved. Either one is born again or still dead in sin. Nor can people be born one minute, unborn, then born again, then unborn over and over their whole life.

    So you still think God calls the righteous and let's them slide by in their own righteousness, cause that is what you keep saying.

    It is the self righteous people who are not wearing a wedding garment.

    Your point is God chooses a few of those self righteous people while condemns the rest of the self righteous to the LOF.

    That only happens after the Second Coming and the church is removed. Read Matthew 25:31-46. Those are your few chosen sheep, after the church has been glorified and presented to God. The goats are removed and cast into the LOF.

    Until the Second Coming the few chosen is not even a consideration. The marriage supper was already in "full swing".
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here we have a Calvinist posting nonsense, trying to derail discussion of bible study questions.

    Matthew 13 comes after the Second Coming? LOLROF

    Did anyone say "half saved?" Nope, so more straw-man fictions hoisted as a smoke screed.

    Did I say God calls the righteous? Nope so more straw-man fictions hoisted as a smoke screed.

    Did I say God chooses a few of those self righteous people? Nope so more straw-ma fictions hoisted as a smoke screed.

    What have I said? God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud...
     
  20. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I am not a Calvinist.

    You really don't like normal discussions.

    Do you attack all posters, or just certain ones?
     
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