Featured Biblical Argument for Cessationism

I have never denied that the Bible was all truth! It is the interpretation of the Bible that some are wrong on!

The Baptist church I am in does not have a sign saying what they believe. The pastor believes as I do concerning the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. He is leading the church into this truth.

He was healed himself! His daughter was healed by laying on hands! God still works the same! His ways are not our ways! We need to get in line with His ways!

By the way..the only difference in what MOST baptist believe and my own is that I believe in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are still here today and will be here until Christ returns. There are several Baptist churches is the south that believe this now!

 

You are not a Baptist. It takes more than dunking to be one—not much more, granted—but more than and the opposite of what you confess.

 

So you are saying that all Baptist are like you? They all believe exactly like you! The church we go to believe different on several issues. But there are Baptist that believe in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit!

 

You're a Pentecostal. In almost all ways they believe like the Baptists. The difference being the doctrines concerning the Holy Spirit.

Yes, you must believe as I do concerning the Holy Spirit to be a Baptist.

 

I never said I don't believe in healing.
First, I have said and testified that in my ministry I have seen many healed, and I attribute that to God answering prayer.

Second, our church has practiced the laying on of hands, according to what is written in James 5, and we have seen people healed. But that needs to be clarified. It is not always God's will that everyone be healed. Many people die of cancer and other such illnesses even though we pray that they be healed.

Third, what I don't believe is in the "gift of healing" as defined in the Bible, and demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16. I have challenged you to show me where that takes place today and you fail each and every time. The supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. Can you give any proof to the contrary?

You cannot properly define "the manifestation of the Holy Spirit." The phrase is used one time in the Bible, and that was in the context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were specifically given to the church at Corinth. They were gifts that were given for first century believers before the canon of Scripture was complete. I listed for you their various purposes. I challenged you to demonstrate to me where they are in existence today. You could refute neither. How can you therefore keep on saying "I believe in the manifestation when:

1. You can't give a succinct definition of what it is you believe in?
2. The purposes of the gifts are no longer in place?
3. There is no present demonstration of any of these sign gifts by anyone living today?

 

Well, I guess not! Because I serve in a Baptist church, with a pastor that believes the same as I do. That stand on the Bible and not some man-made theory trying to explain away the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

I hope you can come face to face with God with that thought.."that all have to believe as you do"...
We have not fully attainedl...we are all growing and learning!

 

can the Lord chose to do a divine healing today? YES, but he can also chosde to heal thru surgery, medicine, natural process, death!

Can and does the Holy Spirit still speak to us today? YES< in the and thru the Bible, and he also can assist us in witnessing, truning from sins, praying, teaching etc!

Can He still guide and prompt/direct us through situations/circumstances etc? yes, but ALWAYS will line up with the Word of God!

 

But you limit God to healing only your way! God heals in many ways...including the gifts of healing.

I agree, not all are healed! Not all are saved either...but he died for all.

My mother died of cancer this year...I can speculate all day as to why God did not heal her! But I do not! When death comes then I accept it for what ever the reason. I do not believe it is God's will that we are sick! Yes! sickness and death will come to us all at times...but God is my healer..and I will not limit Him or explain any of his methods of healing away!

I have never been miraculous healed! I have prayed for people and they have been healed. I do know of some that have been prayed for and instantly they have recovered eye disease, lifetime of migranes etc.
DHK, I am just now in the last 6-7 years renewing my mind to the word of God. I have a lot to learn! But what I do see in the Bible...I will not explain away because I do not see it in the physical right now! Many things I have come across in scriptures (including my salvation) that was not manifested in the physical...but I did not chose unbelief! Even though satan has tried several times to get me too!

I can say it because the Bible says it! AND NOWHERE DOES IT SAY IT IS DONE AWAY WITH!

I have several times explained the "manifestation"....

 

Not rightly dividing the word of truth is your forte.
Where does it directly say that the "miracles of Moses" were done away with?
Where does it directly say that the "miracles of Elijah and Elisha" were done away with?

Therefore, why can't you bring upon the ungodly nations plagues of flies, lice, frogs, locusts, turn a staff into a serpent, make your hand turn leprous, cause others to have boils, and cause an entire nation's firstborn to be dead. Can you demonstrate that you can part the Sea of any body of water? What about wandering through the wilderness without your shoes ever wearing out for a period of 40 years, and your food being provided for by falling from heaven each day? Can you bring water out of a rock?
Where does it say the miracles of Moses have ceased?
That also is a manifestation of the Spirit.
Why can't you do those things?
Why do you pick and choose, and then simply choose those things that are convenient to you? Even then that which is convenient to you is not the real thing. It is not Biblical. You can't even speak in an actual Biblical tongue that is understandable to others. It is fake. It is called gibberish and has nothing to do with the "manifestation of the Spirit."
Your argument has so many holes in it, it is like a leaky faucet that is pouring water and flooding the kitchen floor.

A quote from a dictionary is not a Biblical definition. You still don't know what it is. An etymological break down of the word is not a definition of the word. You still don't know what it is. You can't even define this mystical doctrine that you are following.

 

I have never denied the different ways that God heals! My mother was healed through death!

I have never denied that God speaks throught His Word! Or that He can speak Spirit to spirit.

How were you called into the ministry? Can you find a scripture and verse that said Yeshua1 was called into the ministry?

 

Because God has not called me to do those things...But you never know, my life is not over! I do not limit My God! Jesus could not do anything unless He first saw His Father doing it! He did not heal all the sick! So are you going to say He can not do it? He only did what He was put on this earth to do (AND I THANK GOD HE DID!). I will do what I am called to do!

My belief is back up by scriptures! I have faith in the Word...not your unbelief! Maybe you do not see..because of your unbelief! Remember even Jesus could not perform any miracles because of the peoples unbelief!

You know you are wrong on this one! Manifestation is exactly what I said it is! The Spirit can not be seen! Like the wind! You can see the wind manifest for us to see through the blowing of the trees etc. HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO DEFINE MANIFEST? You do not accept my definition because if you do it would blow your theories out the window!

 

It has nothing to do with belief or unbelief.
God called Moses to do the miracles he did. No one will ever be able to replicate the miracles that Moses did.
God called Elijah and Elisha to do the miracles they did. No one will ever be able to replicate the miracles they did.
No one will ever replicate the miracles of Jesus.
No one will ever replicate the miracles of the Apostles, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not you, not anyone. They have ceased, just as all of the others mentioned.

To find out what you are called to do, consult the Word of God. You can't go back in time and place yourself in the first century. When you say you believe what the Bible says, you really don't. You believe what the Bible says for first century believers and then try to claim that for today. It doesn't work that way. You can't claim the promises of Moses today either.
If it was a simple matter of faith, then go to your mother's grave site, and pray with faith, and raise her from the dead. Or is your faith to weak to do that? See the fallacy in your thinking. Is it a matter of faith? No, not at all. Those were the kind of miracles that only Jesus could perform (as in the case of Lazarus), and no one else. They testified to the deity of Christ. If you are a "son of God" with the power of God, then go and raise your mother from the dead. You should have that power, right? After all, it is only a matter of faith.

I gave you other translations that didn't use the word "manifestation" and you rejected them. You like to hold on to this word so you can attach some mysterious, mystical, esoteric, meaning to it, that not even you can properly define. Properly defined is to take the word where it is found--1Cor.12:7--
(MKJV) But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
--Now see that the following verses speak of the members of the church at Corinth and the various gifts that they had and how they were to use them. He tells them that they were not to covet other gifts but to be satisfied with their own.
You see, you have taken the expression quite out of the context in which it is used.

How is "the showing forth of the Spirit" a doctrine in and of itself? It isn't.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is defined for us in John 16.
He is come to reprove the world: of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.
The Lord also shows forth His Spirit in the fruit of the Spirit.
But the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

When I ask you to give evidence you never do, and cannot give evidence. Why is that? Because the gifts are not operational.

Why can no one heal as Peter heal? Because the gift has ceased. (Acts 5:16)

 

That was a low blow..but I should not be shocked to read this from you. Did Jesus raise all the dead? I was not called to raise my mother from the grave!

No! It is a matter of hearing from God! Getting in line with what God wants done on earth. If I would have heard him tell me to raise my mother...I would have allowed Him to use me in that manner. BUT HE DID NOT!

I am an obedient son of God! If he tells me too I will obey! But I will do nothing to prove to you ANYTHING!

Showing forth...tell me DHK...how can someone show forth something they do not have. If you have the Holy Spirit then it will be shown forth as he listed in the 9 manifestations (what was shown forth)!

Not all are called into miracles! If I am not called...I can not manifest!

 

Perhaps it was a bit too personal. I hope you were not offended.
The fact is that no one is "called" to raise people from the dead--no one.
The only one in all of history that raised any one from the dead, after he had been put in the grave and buried, was Jesus Christ. No one can duplicate that. No one will ever be called to do that. Everyone of us must wait for the resurrection, including all of the apostles and the prophets. The resurrection has not happened yet. The only one to have been actually raised from the dead is Lazarus, and even then Lazarus died. His body will not be permanently raised until the resurrection.

It is a matter of God's will. We can know it is God's will by a knowledge of the Word of God. God reveals his will to us through his Word. I know much of His will through his Word--pray, study, read, meditate, fellowship with other believers, witness, love one another, love God, show mercy, etc. So much of God's will is already revealed in His Word. We need to be concerned with what is already known to be his will first.

As we read his Word we gain faith.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Faith is not blind. It is based on the facts of God's Word.
The Holy Spirit leads only according to His Word, never contrary to it.
That is why we know we cannot duplicate the miracles of Christ, Moses and others. It is not the will of God for us to those things. They were for specific occasions in history, for a specific purpose at a specific time. We simply can't lift them out of their context.

As a son of God, how does he speak to you, and how do you know what to do?
Only God's word can reveal that to you.
It is also important to have good Godly Bible-believing teachers and pastors to lead you in the right direction. When this is lacking in a person's life often they tend to go astray. The Lord gave to the church: pastors, teachers, evangelists, for the building up of the faith.

It is not that you have to prove anything to me, but perhaps to yourself.
Is it not an indication to you that if the gift of healing has not been demonstrated now, or anywhere, for the last 20 centuries, that it is not in existence and that it has ceased? Isn't that evidence in and of itself that the gift has ceased? Why would you need more proof then that? Where in the last 20 centuries has anyone healed like Peter did in Acts 5:16? There have been some anecdotal accounts. People have followed Benny Hinn around with a team of doctors and journalists, and documented those who he has claimed to be healed, and have found that every one of his claims to be false. The same is true with Peter Popov. IMO, these frauds should not be allowed on the TV to propagate fraud. The gift of healing is nowhere to be seen. You haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. Either has anyone else. Why say that it exists then?

And of the sign gifts absolutely no one is showing them, demonstrating them. They are silent today. Why? They have ceased. I have the Holy Spirit. It is the fruit of the Holy Spirit that is manifested, not the gifts. They have ceased. If they haven't ceased why in all the population of the world does the Holy Spirit not show them forth among any one of his children. He is completely silent; totally silent. Which ones do you have?
What foreign languages has God given to you to speak in?
Have you healed thousands, and have the ability to heal anyone of any disease?
Can you perform miracles of the same nature that the Apostles did?

These have all ceased, and no one today is doing them!

Not all? Not any!!!
Where are they? Give names, dates, places, of even just one individual. They have ceased.

 

Curious why you left out apostles and prophets? They are in the list in Eph. 4:11!

Because the Bible never said it would cease! Maybe we do not see it in history that much because we have been taught since the dark ages not to believe it anymore! I am sorry but the church lost a lot of truth during that time...the reformation got some of it back.

I do know some that were healed! and heard testimonies of hundreds...maybe you do not hang out with the ones that believe it!
So you are throwing the whole list in 1 Cor. chapter 12 out! None of them are for today?

 

That list is given more than once. I left out Christ also. Why? Christ is the chief cornerstone. The apostles and prophets make up the rest of the foundation. We build upon that. Christ, the apostles, and the prophets are not in the flesh walking this earth today. That was some 2,000 years ago. Their offices are not replaced. There is only one Christ. Someday he will come back to reign in his kingdom, and when he does his apostles will also come back. We may wait for that day. But it is not now.

Look in the Book of Revelation. In the New Jerusalem there are 12 foundations will 12 names written on them. They are the names of the 12 apostles. There are only 12. The office does not continue.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

But you have never heard of anything that has happened on the scale that Peter did, have you?

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

 

THere were more than the 12 apostles mentioned in the Bible...

 

When the word "apostles" is used with a definite article, "the," or in a list of other "offices" then we know it refers to "the twelve." That is the most common usage of the word "apostle" in the NT.

It is true that there are others that are occasionally referred to as apostle such as Barnabas. In this case the Greek word, apostolos, simply means "sent one" or one sent with a message. And in that respect every Christian is an apostle. When the Latin Vulgate was translated was made they used the word mittere, which in the English is "missionary." Every Christian is a missionary--one sent with a message. As soon as you leave the doors of your house or church you are a missionary to those that you meet. God has sent you with the message of salvation to all that you meet. That is what the word "apostle" means, and how we got our word "missionary." In that respect it is applicable to every Christian. Otherwise there are only 12 apostles. The office of the apostle was numbered. There was 12. Because of Judas, in Acts chapter one, the apostles gathered together to fill the office left vacant by Judas. There had to be 12 and only 12 offices. Acts chapter one makes that clear.

 

Just curious...why would they replace Judas when he died and not replace the others as they died?

Also why would we be warned about false apostles if the real were not around?

 

There are 12 foundations in the New Jerusalem with 12 names written on each, one for each apostle.
Judas was the "son of perdition." He was not saved. His office would have to be replaced, even according to prophecy, as Peter points out in Acts chapter one. There is no apostolic succession. Those names up there in the New Jerusalem will be forever inscribed. They will never be changed.

First, I remember many scriptures warning against false teachers, false prophets, and even false Christs. But I don't remember any against false "apostles." What reference are you thinking of. Even so, Satan is a great imitator. We don't have any genuine prophets around but there are many that claim to be.
Sun Myung Moon recently died. He claimed to be a reincarnation of Jesus Christ.
Fraudulent people can claim anything they want and deceive many.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.