Billy Sunday rant a "sermon"

That makes two of us.

 

Voting for the saloon will send you to hell.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

I know

The issue here is really the same as it always has been here. I am sure most of you know it is really about reformed or not. Everything that is not reformed stinks and everything that is, well is just holy and perfect.

:BangHead:

 

Now Dale, I think you quoted me a bit out of context there. I was responding to Rippon and we were talking about the emotion vs substance in different messages. I am sorry we got a little off your topic but I did not realize we were limited to only the first sermon linked to.

It is not a sermon I will agree with you that it does not contain anything about salvation or grace but is more of a political speech than a gospel message.

But it is not the only sermon Sunday ever preached. I think we can learn a lot from Sunday, from both the good and the bad that he did. Standing up against the liquor companies and preaching the gospel were both good things Sunday did, even if he did not two them both at the same time in every message.

 

SFIC, Thank about what you just said..
You are adding works to grace. But I will leave the theological problems of your statement for someone else to argue over, I know we would never disagree because you think committing suicide, drinking alcohol, or a myriad of other sins will send a Christian to Hell... and that is legalism...

But I am going to explain a more practical reason you should have not said that.

Voting on an issue will not send anyone to hell.

Let me explain why I say this.

I would love to find out if this the "vote" Sunday was talking about was on the constitutional amendment to prohibit alcohol. I have no idea if it was, but I am going to use that issue.

There were Christians on both sides of the issue.
It didn't have to do with being for or against alcohol, it was Federal rights vs. States rights.

And if someone voted against the amendment, Sunday would have said they voted for the saloon.. that may have not been the case, Sunday had no business trying to play God simply on a voting record. And Sunday would have been bearing false witness. (which is a sin also.. BTW, if Sunday was guilty of bearing false witness.. is he in Hell?)

They may have believed that it was the states rights to outlaw alcohol, and not the federal Government.

The same thing is going on today.
I would support a federal amendment to make abortion illegal.
But I have some friends that beleive abortion is an abomination, but do not support a FEDERAL amendment... they would like to see Roe Vs Wade overturned and allow the states to deal with it.

Now if there ever is a fed. amendment that comes up to prohibit abortion, are we going to say that those that favor state rights over fed rights, and vote against the amendment are going to Hell?
Well you might, but without knowing their heart, I refuse to play God.


Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have supported prohibition. For it allowed gangsters to bootleg it.

Of course without that amendment we wouldn't have had NASCAR... And rednecks wouldn't have a thing to do on Sundays except go to church!!! But now we have rednecks that will miss a whole weekend of church to go see their favorite driver go around in circles!

Will that send someone to Hell, SFIC... missing church to go to a NASCAR event...

Ok, you all can throw those bricks at me now...

 

And Dale, why do you keep pushing this New York Times article. I don’t care what the NY Times thinks today, why should I care what they thought 80 years ago. OK, I went and read it. It was actually pretty good. As far as the linked article, the story on Sunday’s meeting is great, it is only the opinion of the Rev. Holmes that I disagree with. From your link:

Holmes problem seems to be that he feels Sunday is only trying to get people to live moral lives and is not reaching them with the gospel. From Holmes’ comments at the end of the link:

So if we preach that people should live moral lives now all of a sudden we are liberals? Wow the world has changed.

 

If we tell them that they have the power within themselves to live a moral life, yes we are being liberal.

It is the liberal Christian that believes that through enough education and enough social programs, the problem of sin will disappear.

IF Sunday was preaching that they had the power to stop drinking without Christ, he was liberal.

That maybe what Holmes was hinting at.

 

Great points Tim. I think that all of ya'll know my stance on the abortion issue. It is reprehensible to me, I want to throw-up when I think of it. However Tim is on target with this post. I will dance in the streets if the thought of RvW were overturned and brought back to the states. Right now it is legal in all fifty states and interstate polling here indicates Floridians do not want free wheeling abortions. In some cases Floridians will accept it. My views differ to some extent but it would be a very happy day to see RVW found only on a lawyers book shelf and no longer, viable, Federal Law.

 

That is precisely not the point TT . You have not been paying attention . There were good solid preachers out there at the time of BS . I names some who were sound , but not Reformed . Alexander MacClaren and Campbell G.Morgan were some of my examples . And there were others who I did not mention who did not sink to the levels of Billy Sunday .Everything on these threads does not have to be under the umbrella of a C vs. A debate . Understood ? Good !

 

Maybe they should have sunk to the level of Billy Sunday. Maybe it was pride that kept them from winning as many souls to Christ as Billy Sunday did.

 

No.

Rejecting Christ will send you to hell.

 

If one votes for liquor, that one is voting against Christ... thus, sending that one to hell.

 

Person A accepted Christ as Savior in 1900.
Person A then votes against making their county a "dry" county in 1914.

(many reasons to vote against it.. it could promote personal "stills", and out of area crime from bootleggers)

Person A is still saved...

Alcohol is not as strong as the Blood of my Savior.
And if the Blood saved him, Alcohol cannot erase the blood.

It is the same premise that would say that if a person drinks alcohol, they are not saved.

Which is not true. There are many Christians that have a glass of wine with dinner.

Especially when you leave the southern US.

 

More personal...

I was saved in 1978.. I got drunk in 1992... was I saved?
Am I still saved?

Unless Christ lied, then yes I was even when I was drunk, and passed out.

Was I being Christ like? NOT HARDLY.
I ruined my witness to all those that was at that party.
BUT... I was still saved.

And I dare anyone to tell me I wasn't saved in 1978.
Unless they are God.

 

Number one...that is not supported by Scripture.
Number two...what does "votes for liquor" mean? A wet/dry referendum...you vote "wet," and you're going to hell? If that is what you're saying, you have just added works to salvation, and you are directly contradicting the Gospel message.
Number three...it is not your job to "decide" which sin "sends someone to hell." (that concept is theologically sloppy anyway...since Jesus is the only way, it is our rejection of Him as Lord that "sends us to hell.")

I understand your passion on this issue, and I speak as one who doesn't drink at all. But you have taken this to the point of not being a biblical argument anymore.

 

Person A did not accept Christ, but rather had a religious experience. Had person A accepted Christ in 1900, person A would have grown in Christ in 14 years enough to know Christ is against the saloons and liquor.

 

The Word of God has already decided. 'He that is not with me is against me.'

In voting for saloons and beer joints to be open, one is promoting the work of satan and not the work of Christ. That one is working against Christ and is not one of His.

 

:laugh:

 

Actually Rbell, it was Billy Sunday that preached this damnable heresy. He is the one that said that voting for the saloon will send you to hell.

SFIC is just passing this heresy on to this generation. See the damage a charismatic preacher that preaches fallacies can cause. Billy Sunday convinced a generation that you must not drink, play cards, dance, or go to the theatre, or they will go to Hell. IT WAS a works theology...

And Paul said that people should be accursed for promoting another Gospel.. which is just what Sunday did when he said that if you vote for the saloon you are going to Hell...

I found another quote from Sunday about cards... http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Book...y Sunday/theater_cards_dance-billy_sunday.htm "Theater, Cards, and Dance" He says....

"If you have any cards in your home, you had better throw them in the furnace when you get back there or else throw your Bibles in the furnace. The two won't mix. Oh, you need not gasp! I am handing it to you straight! There is no use having Bibles around your house if you are going to make a joke of His Word by playing bridge. "


SOOO.. I guess since Sunday is against bridge, all Christians must be too..


And...
"You must want a lot of prostitutes or you wouldn't sow dances; you must want a lot of vomiting, puking drunkards or you wouldn't sow saloons, and you must want a bunch of gamblers or you wouldn't play cards in your homes. "


SO if you are playing rummy with your family, you want them to grow up to be gamblers....


Then speaking of dancing...
Sunday says...
"But you say: "Look here, Mr. Sunday, can't a man dance with his wife?"
"Dance with whom?"
"His wife?"
You old lobster! You don't want to dance with your wife! It is some other fellow's wife. You had just as soon go out and husk corn all night by moonlight as to dance with your own wife.
I believe that the dance is founded on sexual preferences and I believe that passion makes the dance popular. You say that you don't believe it! You make men dance by themselves, and it will kill the dance in two weeks. You know that you don't care for the dance; it is the hug and the opposite sex."

Now I know that this came from a different era... but even this wasn't true back then. I LOVE dancing with my wife, as I am sure that husbands did too back then.

He might have got a whole lot of souls saved, but he has been guilty of defaming the Grace of God as well...

So much so that 80 yrs later people on BB still promote a works based Gospel...

The lesson for us...
PREACH The BIBLE.... NOT HOBBY HORSES.

Learn how to properly interpret the Bible...
If you are a preacher, take a homiletics course... learn proper hermeneutics, and learn how to exegete scripture instead of reading into it your pet sin.

A preacher that preaches works for salvation, is just as bad as a drunkard.. Maybe worse... for a preacher that preaches works for salvation is sending people to Hell...