Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

Have you read the book of Acts? Remember the story of the Ethiopian Eunich? Thomas showed him what Isaiah was talking about how? By reading Jesus into it. The simple reading of those passages does not reveal jesus christ. Thomas had to give the Ethiopian the paradosis of reading jesus into the text.
The Tzitzit has everything to do with health and morals. they remind the wearer of the commandments and you are wrong about the Jews every male practicing Jew has a tallit with tzitzit. And the Holy Spirit dealt with the food in Acts because the sheet with the forbidden animals God specifically said do not call unclean anything I have made clean. And it just wasn't the gentiles he was talking about but the practices and the food they ate like shrimp, and oysters that were outlawed by the law. Not just diseased rat. though I hope you know there are rats that are not diseased. and its not my solution but the Lord himself. God doesn't even forbid Christians to eat food offered to Idols so there is alot you seem to ignore beause of the SDA paradosis. You either follow the law or you do not you can't pick and choose. However, James sets the limits of the law that gentiles must follow also in the book of acts.

Yet we have Paul turn around and say

So I think you are putting more restrictions on the believer than there really is.

 

Not so. The Ethiopian himself asks the question "does the prophet say this of himself or of someone else?" the text of Acts shows that the written text of Isaiah was directing the reader to ask the very question that you claim must be "read into" the text.

Philip had information about the details of the life of Christ and how they fulfilled the text - but it is still the job of the Ethiopian to compare whatever Steven said against the text to SEE IF it matches.

"They Studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul WERE so" Acts 17:11.

Thus it is still today "IF WE (APOSTLES) or an angel from heaven should come to you preaching a different Gospel... let him be accursed" Gal 1:6-11.

The idea of "swallow whatever anyone tells you" simply is not a Bible approved method.

It was neither "unhealthy" to not wear one (or for the orthodox non-clerical Jews today not to wear tassles ) nor was it - nor is it "immoral".

Indeed - as does placing a symbol of the ten commandments over the door. But again it was and still is - neither unhealthy nor immoral to not follow that custom.

The visual indicators that someone was a Hebrew (the tassles for example) - applied only to Hebrews - both OT and NT.

What a good piece of data that would be. What is your source?

No fish are listed in the Acts 10 vision - nothing from the water at all is mentioned. (Creatures of the earth and of the air)

It is "Creeping things" and abominations such as rats that are the focus. But no "rat sandwich" conclusion as Peter relates this vision three times in the book of Acts and all three times "Call no MAN unclean" is stated BY PETER as the correct interpretation - instead of "call no RAT unclean" or "call no diseased flesh unclean".

In fact IN the case of the vision - 3 times the sheet of rats and snakes etc comes down - and 3 TIMES the Peter says NO - and affirms to God that he (Peter) has not violated that part of God's Word.

Not trying to stop you from that next bite of rat-sandwich - but a detail here that you are skipping. The "diseased" meat issue actually mentioned in the text of Lev 11 is not about rats because rats are already NOT to be eaten. There would be no point in saying "do not eat rats and also do not eat diseased rats" -- that makes no sense - it is simply not in the text.

What IS in the text is the fact about eating animals THAT ARE declared by God to be good for food (edible) where He says that IF THEY are diseased then they TOO become unclean for you - just like the rat-sandwich.

This may be a trial to those who anticipated eating rat-sandwiches and diseased beef - but for me - I am happy to honor God's Word in this regard. I do not "draw the line" for what God's Word can say on this subject at the point of insisting on eating diseased beef or rats.

I find your logic illusive at that point. What part of my argument made it appear that the "weak gentile who thinks the idol is a god and so eats vegetables only" along with my "no OT text says it is a sin to eat anything but vegetables" makes it appear that would have differed with your statement above?

Hence my reference to Lev 19:18 "Honor your neighbor as yourself" in conjunction with Lev 11 and the Ten Commandments etc etc.

As Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Acts 15 makes it paramount that all of the scripture be followed as it references the Acts 13 fact that "from Sabbath to Sabbath" gentiles hear the Word of God being taught.

But Acts 15 is not all inclusive - so for example it does not include the Eph 6 statement of Paul about the commandment to honor Parents or the commandments found in James 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Alright Bob lets look at this. this is the passage from Acts

So the vision is not just about diseased rat or diseased beef. But all kinds of four footed animals and reptiles and birds (including chicken I suppose) God told Peter to kill and eat. EAT. He didn't say hang out with gentiles. He said eat because gentiles eat foods as mentioned in the vision. this dietary restriction is lifted. It has nothing to do with peter affriming he was following the law.

And note lev 11

has all this even before you come before the diseased carcases.

thus the restriction here is lifted for the gentiles. and Acts 15 seems pretty inclusive for the gentiles with regard to diet. Especially from the Judiazers who wanted to have Christians act Jewish.

 

Since this is the heaven+Hell thread - I am taking your post over to Steaver's "Bacon" thread so we can look at Lev 11 and Acts 10 in detail without diverting the subject of the thread -

Please join me over there.

Bob

 

Sorry, I can't go there. I believe Paul was referring to all people, not just Christians, when he said, "We will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." The syntax just doesn't seem to circumscribe the members of the church at Corinth. But, assuming it does just that, and assuming that all of them were saved regardless of their bad deeds, it makes absolutely no sense to give out any reward but punishment for bad deeds. Surely you're not suggesting we get even a small positive reward for bad deeds. And if the reward is punishment, wouldn't that be inconsistent with the concept of Heaven? I think it would be inconsistent, inasmuch as punishment is a function of Hell. Therefore, this verse must be referring to a general judgment of all persons where some go to Heaven and some go to Hell, i.e., the same thing as the Great White Throne Judgment. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds." Matthew 16:27.

 

That's why I can't buy into OSAS theology. It leads to absurd results. It also requires that you ignore and/or butcher to the point of nonrecognition literally dozens of scripture passages.

 

There is no passage of Scripture that I know of where an apostle uses the first person pronoun (whether singular or plural) to refer to the unsaved. Paul was not unsaved, and would never consider himself to be among the unsaved. "We" puts himself among the saved. He is referring to the Judgment Seat of Christ, referred to in more detail in 1Cor.3:11-15.

Look at the passage that gives more detail in 1Cor.3:11-15. There is reward and loss of reward.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The works that we do are on this earth. They are done with the members of our body as it describes in Romans 6. The members of our body are instruments of righteous or unrighteousness depending on how we use them. Every believer has the gift of eternal life, and will never lose that gift. Thus this judgment has to do with "the things (reward) done in his body, whether it be good (an eternal reward) or bad (loss of reward as described in 1Cor.3:11-15).

The loss of reward is not inconsistent with the Judgment Seat of Christ.

There is no such thing as one general judgment taught in the Bible. There are many judgments:
1. The judgment of the righteous (Judgment Seat of Christ)
2. The judgment of the unrighteous (Great White Throne Judgment)
3. The judgment of angels.
4. The judgment of the nations.

To name a few.
There is not just one general judgment. There are many.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
--Two resurrections; two judgments.

I for one, will never stand at the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

In Romans 6 the reware for "bad deeds" is death "the wages of sin is death".

In Romans 2:6-11 the reward for bad deeds is condemnation and torment in the 2nd death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Then your "religion" is based on works and not by grace through faith. What does Romans 6 say:

Romans 6:20-23 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
--Bad deeds is not eternal death. In fact being the servant of sin is simply the absence of righteousness. Before these people were saved they were not in hell; not annihilated; not in a state of soul sleep; not in the Lake of fire, etc. They were present on the earth, alive, but spiritually dead

Do bad deeds = eternal death or the 2nd death?
These bad deeds, the things that they are now ashamed of resulted in death.
Physical death? No. These Romans, that Paul was writing to were quite alive.
Eternal or the Second death? No. These Romans, that Paul was writing to were quite alive?
Spiritual death? Absolutely! They were separated from God or spiritually dead until the Holy Spirit would enter their lives and give them spiritual life.

Now they are saved. They have been made free from sin. They have become servants to God. Their fruit is holiness and the end is everlasting life. What a beautiful verse that teaches OSAS for the believer. Salvation always produces eternal life.

Ultimately sin ends in separation (death) from God, whether spiritual or eternal. But the gift of God is eternal life. Another great verse for OSAS. It is God's great promise.

 

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Paul is very quick to point out the obedience to the Law that is so readily apparent in the lives and teaching of born-again saved saints.

But some pulpits are still stuck on only teaching about the view of the law from the standpoint of the LOST - the not saved.

Romans 6 is a good text speaking about the law that DEFINES sin - and the OBEDIENCE to that Law that is to be seen in the life of the saved saint.


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

IN the text Paul says that being overcome by sin - or making the claim that under grace you ought to be allowed to sin - is to be the "slave of sin" as a lost person.

Paul argues in Romans 6 that if you choose to be the slave of sin - after you are "under grace" then you have lost salvation.

In fact this is seen in Romans 11 as well "you should FEAR for you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Are you sure about that? Just who draws that line? And where is that line drawn. Have you ever told a lie? Just once? Twice? Five times? Twenty? Are you a slave to it? Perhaps you are not saved. Have you chosen to be a servant of sin? Is it 19 lies or 20 lies that makes one a slave to the sin of lying?

 

And what would the bad rewards be in heaven - a shack instead of a mansion? Streets of silver in lieu of gold? Right…

You just skipped right over the operative word “judgment” there didn’t you. It means precisely that - judgment.

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done (WORKS), whether it be good or bad.

Well, you have to misinterpret these passages in that way in order to get around the issue of works. Unfortunately, you’ll also need to disregard an enormous amount of scripture in the process. Ref. Posts #34, #35 , & #36 in this thread.

Um hmmm…

What? Oh lordy…It is astonishingly clear that you don’t even read most of what I post as I’ve reference those verses multiple times. Ok – here it is again:

Romans 2:5-8
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

Let’s look at this closely now:
6 God will repay everyone according to his works:

And that repayment will be?

7 ETERNAL LIFE to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works

- BUT –

8 WRATH AND FURY (eternal damnation) to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Perhaps. However, you stated that you were “clothed in Christ” and I simply pointed out to you the requirement of water baptism.

Galatians 3:27: For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Amen! However, take note of the last part of Phil 3:8-11: that... I MAY (not I SHALL) obtain the resurrection from the dead" He doesn’t sound all that sure to me.

If by that you mean that I don’t understand how you arrive at your particular interpretation regarding judgment and salvation, then yes – that would be true.

I see – quote a verse then claim victory. Look, 1 Corinthians 6:11 is simply referring to a past event - “you were sanctified, you were justified “ which does not speak to its continuance.

I believe that you have a limited understanding of salvation as a continual process.

"I have been saved”
Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ. (by grace you have been saved)

2 Cor 5:17 “So whoever is in Christ is a new creation”

This acknowledges the first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved--He died, rose from the dead in atonement for our sins.

"I am being saved”
1 Corinthians 1:18
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 15:2 “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain”.

This acknowledges the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.

"I will be saved"
Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rom 5:9 “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath”.

I will be saved, that I have hope and confidence that God will give me the grace of perseverance; that I will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death.

This acknowledges the third meaning the words "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ.

Philippians 2:12 “So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

If it were a “one time event” there would be no need to work out our salvation.

Peace!

 

Let the reader - see the text and be informed.

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

 

Maybe you get a hot wax & shine from the Pope.

Just guessin'...

Maybe our resident Southern Baptist......er, Catholic.....er, something-or-other will let us know...

 

Go for it Bob! Even Jeremiah mocks your position:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

Be sure to use lots of soap with that water in that baptismal tank. Scrub hard. You want to make sure you scrub each and every sin off.

 

"So many suplicants... so little time"

 

Most likely something or other