Blinding Their Minds to the Gospel

HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:

 

Imagine that...lol.

 

You see Darrell, I do not think like a Calvinist, nor one leaning hard towards Calvinism. :thumbsup:

 

Okay, and how does that apply to this:

It is not hard, in reading this, to see that it is not understood that we are children of wrath until we are saved.

This indicated a legalistic attitude, which is why it caught my eye.

You then change this to:

I can agree with the corrected version, but the first statement is in error.

No amount of wordplay or diversionary tactics will change that fact. The first statement is insight to the heart of your theology. Your condemnation of Calvinists betrays your hatred for those that you have no clue as to whether they belong to the Lord or not.

You are calling uncommon that which God has cleansed, for if you say that there are no Calvinists that are saved, you would surely be assumoing more than has been granted to you, or anyone.

I noticed your comment earlier:

Now you ask me what sin I have given up for the Lord.

Typical. Of legalists, I mean.

My answer: not a single one.

While you snicker, let me just tell you the sin that the Lord, because He has indwelled me, has taken from my life:

Drug abuse.

Alcohol abuse.

Idolatry in a multiplicity of areas.

I could go on and tell of how the Spirit of God has greatly improved me in areas of anger, jealousy, impatience...however, in many of these areas He is still working on me, so I will not bore you with details.

Oh, and one more: pride. The more I learn of God, the less I think of myself, as God shows me sin in my life.

I wouldn't actually call this a debate.

Not yet, anyway.



Continued...

 

And lets look at why I made this statement:

Now you say:

Are you to say that the first statement did not imply that one must undergo water baptism in order to be saved?

Did not the conversation begin with an inquiry of when we stop being the children of wrath? To which you post a verse that speaks of baptism?

That is not the impression that was given.

It s began with this:

And now, you will give Romans 6:4 a context of water baptism?

Am I to take this that it is still insisted that water baptism is tied to our salvation.

And to clarify, I do believe that water baptism is a public proclamation to the spiritual event which has taken place in the life of the believer, but, it does not contribute to salvation itself.


Continued...

 

HP: What strikes me strange is for Darrell to be so blindly one sided in his remarks. Why doesn't he apply his logic to those, on this list, that have clearly inferred to refuse to accept the Calvinist notion of original sin, as being outside of the faith? Where was his rebuke to those?

No one presenting evidence against OS has even came close to suggesting that one cannot be saved and believe in OS, that I have read. Why would his statement suggest that which has never been suggested by the ones he direct his comments to, yet refuse to apply it to those of evidently like minded views who have literally suggested that absurd assumption that he chides?

 

Thanks again, Heavenly Pilgrim. By the way, I love reading what you post.

 

You are too kind my friend. It is so refreshing to see so many proclaiming truth. Keep up the good work! :thumbs:

PS: Don't look at the faces of your opposition.

 

Did I?


Colossians 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


Am I right in guessing that I "disagree with the word of God" because I do not believe that sinlessness in the life of the believer is is possible?

Or is it because I disagree that works are necessary for man to be saved?

Or is it because I disagree that we do no "cease to be children of wrath until we die to the flesh?"

Perhaps you could clarify.

Do tell.

Not the first time I have been accused of that.

I know this must seem like reasonable argument, but, if you read this, it is the law that is in view.

Perhaps you menat to add to this? I would love to hear your commentary on what Jesus does for us...in this verse.

You seem to have a preoccupation with others. And their sin.

But this was apparent in just a few posts.

It would seem you know quite a bit about people you have never met. Will you at this time answer my question?

Exactly how many Calvinists do you know? I don't mean on forums, but in your life? How many have you sat down and discussed doctrinal belief with?

You see, until you know what a person believes, you err to presuppose their beliefs for them.

Continued...

 

I guess if a different translation is needed for you to understand, I can accomodate:



Colossians 3:5

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Let me know if the KJV confuses you on anything else. It is my favorite translation, and since I have been using it for so long, most of which I have remembered has been in the King's English, and I have to admit...I love the accent.

That is humor, by the way. Spoken in modern english.

Okay, I f I used to walk in these ways...I need not regard this command, now do I?

lol

Well, when one is limited to a certain number of verses to make their doctrine sound plausible, I guess one could think this implies sinlessness in the life of the believer.

However, if one chooses to reach a balanced view of what John teaches, they must also include everything he taught his brethren:


For your benefit:



1 John 1:8-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


And for mine:



1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Continued...

 

A "Calvinist Spirit?"

You read Peretti books, don't you...lol.

It is probably from growing up with a brother that has since gone to be with the Lord, who was constantly picked on. So, yes, I will defend my Calvinistic brothers, as well as my Pentecostal brothers, as well as my Baptist brothers, as well as my Methodist brothers as well...well, you get the point. I will not defend all the doctrines that are taight by those groups, but neither will I stand over them in the place of Christ and judge them.

And that, my friend, is both a Christian Spirit, as well as a red-blooded American spirit.

Are you so bold in speech when you speak to people in the real world, I wonder? If so, I have my doubts that these conversations go anywhere. We have been called to be witnesses, not judges.

As do I. But I can still thank God for saving me and still recognize my weakness.

And that is what the Law will teach a heart.

That is what the Spirit of God will teach a heart.

Continued...

 

I don't accuse you...you accuse yourself:


I would not be wasting my whole morning and afternoon on people like you if I did not care.


Oh yeah...can't you just feel the love...lol.

Well, it is true, "Out of the mouth comes the abundance of the heart."

Look, a little advice: instead of saying "Calvinists believe...", try, "Calvinism teaches..."

So this is an issue that has gone on for some time now.

I would say that I am glad you have stopped crying, but honestly, I am not so sure that was not the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps it might be good to revisit those emotions, and discern if they are of the Lord or not.

This is a sad statement. I am very sorry you have wasted time on people like me.

But you're in luck...it is dinner time, so I have to get going.

Well, this is one of the great things about the forums, they are a place where the doctrine and practice we embrace can be tested. Sometimes we are corrected, sometimes we correct.

God bless.

 

I am a little disappointed, HP. You were at one time, a fairly worthy antagonist to debate with.

But here in my latest visit to this forum, you seem to do nothing bu play a true antagonist.



Proverbs 6:14-19

King James Version (KJV)

14Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

You realize, of course, that the Proverbs is in fact a part of God's word...right?

What should strike you is the need to constantly pat the backs of those that, like yourself, teach doctrine that has been over and over adressed, rather than a point by point discussion with those you talk about.

You have been given opportunity and enough to discuss this and other issues, HP, but you have declined. It is easier to make behimd the hand remarks (and this is what responses like this are), stir the pot, keep dissension and discord alive between those that otherwise might actually have reasonable and profitable discussions...without anger.

But you like that, don't you.

That is a dangerous place for one to be, my friend.

What list?

And what faith is there that does not teach that "if you do not embrace our doctrine, you have embraced the wrong one?"

What faith is there that is not in error on some point.

Who is it that is flawless in doctrine?

THere are facets of Calvinism I reject, but far worse in my view are those that profess Christ yet preach hatred. Just not a representation of Christ.

And far worse than that are those that spend their time in sewing discord.

Call that a false accusation if you like, but I suggest you read the word of God posted at the top of this response, then go back and read you last twenty posts...then deny it.

I have no clue as to who it is you speak of. But that's the point, right? Vagueries are far harder to address.

Did I say that? Please show me.

What I have said, and I might as well repeat it, is that this doctrine is a primary doctrine held by legalists, Judaizers, that they can elevate man, and demean the Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps that is what you mean.

Well, if you (after what, 8000, 10,000 posts) learned to quote, then perhaps I would know what it is you speak of.

I will ask you a question or two, for my own satisfaction, as well as for the benefit of one here that I believe you are being deceitful with:

Is the keeping of the law a requirement for salvation, and,

Can a believer live a sinless life.

You pat the back, wag the tongue, can you also answer a straightforward question or two?

 

You said: Typical. Of legalists, I mean.

My reply: If you call obeying Jesus and teaching we are to obey is legalism, then I am guilty.

You said: I will not defend all the doctrines that are taight by those groups, but neither will I stand over them in the place of Christ and judge them.

My reply: Here are some scriptures for you to think about, while I continue to contend for the faith.
Here are some reasons, from the bible, to support debating.

Acts 9:29
He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

2 Corinthians 3:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope that it is plain to your conscience.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10

Paul opposes Peter. See Galatians 2:11-21

Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

 

Okay, one more:

Actually, you take more the position of Peter, if you ask me.

What, decided to drop the discussion about baptism?

As I said, not really what I call debating.

Great verses. Your point?

No-one dissuades you from debating. It is the hatred you portray that is unseemly.

Love this passage. Shows the evident truth that a man does not have to follow the law for salvation.

Again. great verses.

And again, your point?

All of this to respond to...

Now why I come to this conclusion, and you can correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am, stems from your statement as to when we cease to be the children of wrath.

While trying to change your statement, you say that which would be agreed with, however, you speak of baptism. Then use a verse speaking about spiritual baptism to emphasize.

Okay, one simple question:

Do men have to be water baptised to be saved?

 

Heavenly Pilgrim,

That is excellent advice in your P.S. to me. It is amazing how well it works. I will always remember it.

 

HP: Moriah, the only ones I know with 'great numbers of teachers' would be found in what has became the 'orthodoxy' of so many of today's churches. It matters not where you turn, the local churches on the corner, the radio, TV, or your local 'Bible' bookstore, Calvinistic writers and teachers hold the title when it comes to 'great numbers of teachers.' Interesting thoughts this Scripture provokes.

 

Too bad for you, HP, your ally has betrayed your need for subtile manipulation.

How embarrasing.

 

How's that Darrell?

 

Oh, he's doing fine. Thanks for asking, though.