Born Again-Regeneration-Living Water-Holy Spirit

As pertaining to "born again" Christ argues that the New Birth teaching of the OT is well known to OT Bible teachers PRE-Cross!

This is clear since as Heb 4 states "the GOSPEL was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also"

But getting back to Christ's argument for the pre-cross OT understanding of the New Birth --


John 3:9-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

King James Version (KJV)
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?' 10Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!


Darby Translation (DARBY)
9Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!


Hence we see "insight" into the teaching of the "NEW HEART" that is "CREATED" in the New Birth teaching of the OT in Ps 51 and referenced by Jeremiah as well as Heb 8. "CREATE in me a CLEAN heart and renew a right SPIRIT within me - take not Thy Holy Spirit FROM me"...

Aparently OT Bible teachers were reading Ps 51 -- hmmm imagine that!

 

Those who imagine "no Holy Spirit pre-cross" are in error according to these texts

Those who imagine "no New birth pre-cross" are in error from John 3 "alone".

John 3:3-12 The Holy Spirit was "already given to individuals" John 3:3-12 and Christ scolded the Hebrew Bible teacher Nicodemus for not already knowing of the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

Gen 41:38 – the Holy Spirit was IN Joseph

Ezek 3:24 – the Holy Spirit was IN Ezekiel and ON Ezekiel

Isaiah 63:8-14, HS IN your midst

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David just as He does with us today

Is 59:21 – Holy Spirit was upon them, forever promises of the Holy Spirit

Hag 2:5 “My Holy Spirit is abiding IN your midst”

Jer 24:7 “A heart to Know Me”

John 3 – the Work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth to be known by Jewish Bible Scholars pre-cross.

But the POST Cross work of the Holy Spirit seen in Acts 1 and 2 and spoken of in Joel 2 -- did not being until the day of Pentecost - Acts 1-2.

 

John 3 is not "my opinion"

Ps 51 is not "my opinion"

Jer 33 is not "my opinion"

Arguing that John 4 is scripture and all the texts speaking the subject in a way that does not support your theory are "just opinions" is not a logically sound position.

My argument is that the "New Heart" of Ps 51 that is "CREATED" in a "take NOT Thy Holy Spirit from me" context SHOWS the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the life of the believer EVEN in the OT.

My argument is that Christ Himself stated that anyone who is supposed to have a satisfactory understanding of scripture PRE-Cross should already KNOW about the Holy Spirit and the new birth process that takes place at conversion.

These are beyond dispute.

But clearly the Acts 1-2 manifestation of gifts and outpouring of the Holy Spirit were post-cross.

Pretending that this is not blatantly obvious may be "necessary" to the view you are holding -- but how can you blame the objective unbiased reader for "Seeing it anyway"??

Ps 51
9 Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart[/b], O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation; Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.


David speaks of the NEW created heart - the experience of the believer in HIS day where the Holy Spirit is there as he states.

He also makes the statement about the Law of God - IN the heart that he might not sin against God.

Ps 119

11Your word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against You.

23Even though princes sit and talk against me,
Your servant meditates on Your statutes.
24Your testimonies also are my delight;
They are my counselors.
...
34Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law
And keep it with all my heart.

Jer 31
31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, [b]My covenant which they broke[/b], although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" [b]I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for [b]they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I [/B]will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

This is the New Covenant of the NT and it is seen in many places in the OT including Ps 51, in Ps 119 etc. Christ was right to chastise Nicodemus for pretending not to know it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

There is only ONE Gospel "Gal 1:6-11"

And NO foundation OTHER than Christ is even possible (1Cor 3)

1 Corinthians 10


1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]


In John 20 - once again they receive the Holy Spirit

John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 1 once again Christ tells them to WAIT for the promised blessing of the Holy Spirit. If you are trying to over-extend scripture so that each time they are given the promise of the Holy Spirit all the PREVIOUS instances are deleted - you are not dealing faithfully with scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

This is GOOD OT pre-cross Doctrine!





Isaiah 55
1 ""Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2 ""Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
3 "" Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.



Matt 5
17 ""[b]Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets[/b]; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law[/b] until all is accomplished.
19 ""[b]Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same[/b], shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but [b]whoever keeps and teaches them[/b], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

That is only true if you take a slice-and-dice either-or approach to scripture. If you allow scrpture to speak to your topic then it is clear that the Holy Spirit's work that is identified in the OT can not be "spun" to "NO Holy Spirit in the OT".

You claim that John is arguing that very thing!!

This is why I have quoted your OP texts from John 4 AND John 7 to show your error and contrast it to the way these texts fit perfectly with all the OTHER pre-cross OT doctrine on that subject.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Steaver said

Thanks for pointing that out - I see it applies here.

 

The "gift of God," in this passage refers to Jesus Christ Himself (John 3:16).

The "water" that Jesus speaks of here is more than the Holy Spirit; it is the sum of His teaching and the benefits of receiving the gospel that He is preaching. The graces that a believer receives will be a continual well of refreshing water that dwells within the Christian.

The "living water" in John 7 is not speaking of everlasting life. John is clear that Jesus is speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit had indeed been given, He simply had not been given like He was to be given after Jesus ascended to heaven. The Old Testament saints had already received the promise of everlasting life. They trusted and believed and it was counted to them as righteousness.

They did not receive, nor did they need to receive the Holy Spirit. They were saved by believing in the gospel message that courses through the entire Old Testament. The Holy Spirit was given to New Testament saints as a Comforter and guide to all truth. The Holy Spirit was given to indwell the believer after Jesus bodily left this earth.

 

As I stated above, John 7 is not speaking of everlasting life. The passage you quote above is also not speaking directly of everlasting life. He says that it "springs up into everlasting life." It is simply His doctrine which promises the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. Understanding and embracing this doctrine will lead to everlasting life. The living water itself is not "everlasting life."