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Featured "born of water" does not mean "baptized".

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by George Antonios, Jun 15, 2021.

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  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Any soul-winner knows that nominal churches have used Christ's words in v.5 except a man be born of water to teach baptismal regeneration.
    The evangelical reply that here water = the word of God, does not hold...water. Ha!
    Here's the Biblical interpretation of Christ's words, to deliver people from the heresy of baptismal regeneration.
    I hope to God you find it useful and get to use it:

     
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  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    George... Show me someone who can say, they participated in their natural birth and I will believe they participated in their spiritual birth... In my over 50 years in the church... I haven't met one yet!... Brother Glen:)

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    Here is one of my preacherism, I've heard said over the years and I have said it before and it seems to fit here... If the candidate for baptism isn't regenerated before they are immersed in the baptismal waters... They go in a dry devil and come out a wet one!:eek:
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    A very nice presentation. I also agree to be born again, is to be first physically born (born of water, born of flesh) and then born again of the Spirit.

    Two minor comments, for the purpose of improving the message.

    1) When you speak of baptism, you should make clear you are referring to water baptism, not our spiritual baptism into Christ.

    2) Jews thought by birth (descendants of Abraham) they would enter the kingdom, but Jesus told them they must be born again.
     
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  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what that post has to do with the OP.
     
  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Good points. I tried to keep it as non confusing as I could, but yes, we do need the spiritual baptism to be saved.
     
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Brother Glenn is a very polite Calvinist. He is saying, in my fallible opinion, "no one seeks God" contrary to the biblical view the lost are able to respond affirmatively to the gospel. Thus we do not "participate" in our rebirth, just as we did not "participate" in our physical birth.

    Second he is agreeing with you, water baptism does not result in spiritual change, you just get wet...
     
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  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I don't understand how anyone can read this passage and get anything other than a comparison of actual physical vs. spiritual birth.
     
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  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you absolutely :) that the New Birth is not a synonym for baptism.
    However, I don't think you are quite right that the 'water' aspect of the New Birth is a reference to the amniotic fluid within an expectant mother's womb.
    There is nothing wrong with this view, save that nowhere else in the Bible is human birth ever associated with water. One needs to be cautious in adopting an interpretation of one text of the Bible which cannot be corroborated by at least one other. Scripture must always interpret Scripture.

    I am therefore inclined to support a different view, which is also supported by many exegetes. As usual, our clue lies in the text: ‘Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do you not know these things?”’ (John 3:10). What our Lord is saying is that if Nicodemus was such a great Old Testament teacher, he would know what He was talking about instead of being so totally confused and dumbfounded (v.9). Therefore there must be some reference in the Hebrew Scriptures to the New Birth and to Water and Spirit which would have helped Nicodemus to understand; otherwise our Lord’s rebuke would have been unfair. With this in mind let us consider the following verses:-

    ‘For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take your heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them’ (Ezek 36:24ff).

    “Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, and in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. Purge [N.I.V., ‘cleanse’] me with hyssop and I shall be clean; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow ……..Hide Your face from my sins, and blot out my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me (Psalm 51:6,7,9,10).

    Here, in these two texts, we surely get a preview of the work of God, the Holy Spirit, in the New Birth. It is a two-fold work of water and Spirit: an inward cleansing from sin and idolatry, and a renewal of the heart and spirit for future obedience. That it is a spiritual cleansing rather than baptism that is meant in these passages is indicated by the mention of hyssop in Psalm 51. This is not some ancient Hebrew soap, but rather the sprig of a plant. On the day of the Passover, the Israelites were instructed (Exodus 12:22) to dip the hyssop in the blood of the slain Passover lamb and sprinkle it on the lintel and the doorposts of their houses. Therefore, to be purged or cleansed with hyssop is to be washed in the blood of the Lamb (Heb.9:11ff; Rev. 7:14). No outward ablution could ever cleanse us from moral ‘filthiness and idolatry’. We need a cleansing which works from within.

    In the New Testament, one gets an inkling of this two-fold process in verses such as 1Corinthians 6:11 or Ephesians 5:26, but the clearest expression is found in Titus 3:3-5. Here Paul has been telling Titus not to be too harsh to the Cretan converts, but to show a little gentleness and humility. ‘For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another…..’ that’s what Paul and Titus were like before they were born again. ‘…..But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. What is the nature of the New Birth? It is a birth of Water and Spirit; the washing away of indwelling sin and corruption, and renewal by God, the Holy Spirit.
     
  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ( John 3:5 ).
    What "water"?;)

    @George Antonios :

    I agree.
    To me, "born of water" does not mean "baptized".
    It means to be born again by the word of God;

    In that I disagree with you...as it does indeed "hold water".
    Here are some examples of where I get this:

    " That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word," ( Ephesians 5:26 ).
    " Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." ( James 1:18 ).
    " Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." ( John 15:3 ).
    " Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all." <---- Judas was not clean, because he was not washed with water by the word. He was not begotten with the word of truth.

    " Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" ( Titus 3:5 ).
    " Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." ( John 17:17 ). <------ God's word sanctifies all who He "begets" through His word.

    " Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you." ( Ezekiel 36:25 ).
    " And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." ( 1 Corinthians 6:11 ).
    " Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." ( Hebrews 10:22 ).

    " The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" ( 1 Peter 3:21 ). <---- Baptism is the "like figure" of what God has done for us through Jesus Christ....

    Cleansed us with His Son's blood, and with His pure word...
    The "water" of life.



    One more for emphasis:

    " These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." ( 2 Peter 2:17 ). <------ Speaking of false teachers, who are devoid of the truth of God's word.
     
    #9 Dave G, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Did you watch the video?
     
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  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Did you watch the video?
     
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  12. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Succinctly well put. I'll be using that, thanks.
     
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  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    About half of it.
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    George after watching your video (the whole thing), I believe you will see how the follow scriptures apply... As you can see, symbolically baptism is a death and a resurrection (to a new person), not a birth (for those who think it is)... Those who want to argue... Don't argue with me argue with scripture... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    In verse 5, Jesus is answering the question that Nicodemus asked Him in verse 4:

    "Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

    It is clear that Nicodemus was speaking about natural birth. Jesus then clarifies what He meant in verse 3,

    "Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

    It is, "γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν", that is, to be "born from above", a "birth" that is from God the Holy Spirit.

    In verse 5 Jesus says, "γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος", "begotten out of water and the Spirit". The "water", contextually is in response to verse 4, which is not about "water baptism", but, "natural birth". The "Spirit", is to the "birth" by the Holy Spirit, when the repenting and believing sinner, is "born from above". This is exactly what Paul says in Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit". Where the word "regeneration", is from "παλιγγενεσίας", literally, "born again".

    All humans are born "naturally", and must be born from above "spiritually", by the Holy Spirit, if they want to get to heaven.
     
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  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I finally got around to watching the whole thing.
    I think it's a very good expose of baptismal Regeneration, which is the most important part of your video, but I still can't go with the 'water' being amniotic fluid.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I cannot understand the "water", if referring to human birth, bring anything else. can you?
     
  18. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I'm just going to ask a question, then. I've heard many women throughout my lifetime say, "My water broke...." Sounds pretty simple to me. Isn't it possible that this is EXACTLY what it means when it speaking of the "water?" I believe so. We already know there is no baptismal regeneration. If that was a requirement, it wouldn't be left out in so many passages of Scripture as a requirement. I'm not going to argue the point...but it is a viable explanation.
     
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  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Everyone who was ever born was born of water, including Jesus Himself. Amniotic fluid has been called "water" since time immemorial, as that's what it mostly is. And baptism is NOT being born of water; childbirth is, be it natural or Caesarian.
     
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  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    well said brother!
     
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