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Featured Bought then Redeemed

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Aug 30, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2. However, only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteous faith and then on that basis places us spiritually into Christ, do we receive the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Lets call this second transaction redemption. Thus mankind was bought with a price, but only those placed in Christ are redeemed

    We know from 2 Peter 2:1 that Christ bought those heading for swift destruction, so the ransom was for all humanity and not just for those redeemed. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says individuals are chosen for salvation through the sanctification by the Spirit (God transferring people into Christ) and faith in the truth.

    As Ambassadors of Christ, we beg people to be reconciled to God. How are we reconciled? God places us spiritually into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration. Why does He choose this individual and not that individual? Because He chooses those individuals whose faith He credits as righteous faith.
     
  2. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    You are the only one who teaches this "potential ransom" that a person must first exhibit a personal faith that meets the standards God requires before God can credit that person's faith as meeting the bar of righteousness required to be chosen. I have never heard any human being teach what you are teaching. From what tradition are you drawing your conclusions?
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but you deny a well known understanding of scripture, as something only I present.
    1) Everyone believing in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16.
    2) Unconditional election before creation is a minority view, rejected by most Baptists.
    3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches individuals are chosen through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
    4) What "tradition?" Believing God's word as written, rather than rewriting what does not fit man-made doctrine.
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    "Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2."

    How is this "potential Ransom"?
     
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  5. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    If that payment is for the world, universal (from beginning of time to end of time) then every human has been fully ransomed for all sins, including the sin of unbelief. There will be no one in hell as everyone is paid for. There can be no other conclusion.

    It wasn't just a "means", it was an actual payment. If it was a "means", then human effort is the saving work, not God's grace.

    Can you not see the flaw in calling Jesus payment merely a "means?" Therefore your position is a "Potential Ransom" that provides a means for man to save himself.
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The passage says:

    "Christ bought, paid the ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2."

    Compare your version to the version that appears in God's Word.

    Christ bought, paid the Ransom, for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for the whole of humanity.

    Your argument is with the passages, not with me.

    Penal Substitution theorists cannot understand how the passage can be true - that Christ bought, paid the ransom for all mankind, becoming the means of salvation for the whole of humanity. But rather than examining their theory they rework the passage.

    That is wrong.
     
  7. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that sentence says "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

    Without considering all of John's letter and the entire scripture one reads that Jesus appeased the wrath of God for John and his intended audiences sins as well as the universal world."

    Nowhere do we see "ransomed as a means of salvation for the whole world." It is not there. So, you cannot legitimately say such a thing by reading that verse.

    If we leave the verse in complete isolation then the conclusion has to be that there is no sin in all the universe that has not been actually paid for and no human that is not 100% righteous before God because of Jesus appeasing the wrath of God.

    I don't think for one second that John was teaching his audience such a thing. 1 John 1 clarifies for us that Jesus appeasement goes beyond John's readers to all who believe, precisely because Jesus has appeased God's wrath against them at the cross.

    There is no "means" being discussed by John in that verse so please stop adding to the Bible what is not there.
     
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

    But under Penal Substitution that equates to universal salvation. They have to change the passage to define "whole world" to "all nations" or "people groups".

    That is not the only verse Penal Substitution theorists change, but it is an important one.

    Classical Christianity can accept that verse as written yet not come out with universal salvation.
     
  9. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    What else does "whole world" mean and not be universal salvation?
    You have to do an incredible juggling act and you have to insert "means" into the verse, which absolutely makes man the determiner of his own salvation. God's salvation by grace is ultimately rejected by the word "means" being added to the verse.
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It literally means the whole world (all mankind). John makes this clear in the following verses when he speaks of those who know, and those who do not know, Christ.

    How does it not equate to universal salvation? Under the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement it has to. But under traditional Christianity it doesn't.

    You don't need to change the Bible. You need to change your theory.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    There can be no other conclusion based on reformed doctrine which is errant.
     
  12. Stray Cat

    Stray Cat New Member

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    Van. Hi. Do you believe God saves a man because there was something good about him or in him?
     
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  13. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    You throw out an extremely vague "but under traditional Christianity it doesn't" which is entirely empty of any value at all. It's an utterly meaningless phrase because you have never defined what "traditional Christianity" is.
    A Roman Catholic would claim that the RCC tradition is traditional Christianity. The Orthodox would say the same about their tradition. The same with Anglican, Presbyterian, etc. So, what is your "tradition" that you call "traditional Christianity?"

    Does "traditional Christianity" (whatever that means to you) teach that Jesus was only a potential payment as long as each human does something to aquire that potential payment? Do you think that is what Jesus taught?

    Can you please just plainly state your tradition to us?
     
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is not vague at all.

    I don't know where you are coming up with this "potential payment". You hold some strange views. And you are wrong. Christ died for our sins ...ONCE for all. There is no potential payment. There is no potential redemption.

    By traditional Christianity I mean the "Classic View" as opposed to the "Latin View" when it comes to Atonement positions. Traditionally Christians affirmed one of several types of Ransom Theory (Christ suffered and died under the evil of this world, under Satan, as a Ransom....either paying a ransom to death, to Satan, or to no entity but as a price paid or a cost).

    In theology there are two basic paths of understanding the Atonement. You have the Classic view, which was the main category prior to the 10th Century, and the Latin view.

    The primary understanding of Atonement prior to the Latin View is Classic Christianity. It is mainly expressed in a form of Ransom Theory. Christ suffered under the powers of evil to redeem us from its bondage.

    The Latin View focuses on a type of substitution (a shift from unity to replacement). This is the position of the RCC. The Reformers revised this to Penal Substitution Theory (replacing merit with justice).

    I suggest you purchase a good systematic theology, or topic specific book because I am not going to restate multiple threads to explain to you what you should already know prior to discussing a topic.

    You jump in to strongly claim your view correct....then you admit you don't even know enough about opposing views to make that claim.

    Take care of your own ignorance, reevaluate your position, then come back.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What I may believe does not matter, it is what God's word says that matters.
    Does God's word say no one is good except God? See Matthew 19:17.
    So when you say "there was something good about him," are you suggesting God saves individuals because of something a person thinks or does? See Romans 9:16
    Can a lost person give "good gifts" to his or her children? See Matthew 7:11.

    Buried under your question is the suggested ignorance as to what a lost person must do to be "considered" for salvation? See John 3:16. A person is not saved because they believe, see Matthew 7:21-23. People are saved when and if God credits their faith as righteousness. See Romans 4:23-25

    Christ sacrificial substitutionary death paid the ransom (1 Timothy 2:6) which provides the means of reconciliation for all humanity (1 John 2:2), but only those chosen conditionally (with their faith credited by God alone) receive the reconciliation. See Romans 5:11
     
    #15 Van, Aug 31, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It just dawned on me that you are simply repeating talking points you have heard from others in different debate and regurgitating them here.

    You are the only one talking about a potential payment.

    I never said anything about a potential payment. @Van never said anything about a potential payment.

    Over the years such strawmen surface in these discussions. Sometimes they come about due to ignorance, other times intentionally to cloud the discussion (when people cannot adequately defend their beliefs they use strawmen, ad hominem, change the topic....anything to hide their insecurities concerning their faith).

    I think you may have simply misunderstood a concept being discussed

    What made you think @Van or I believed in some potential payment?
     
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  17. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    You are correct. he is the only one.
     
  18. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    I am repeating your talking points, Jon.

    I note that you cannot or will not tell us what your tradition is. Nor will you identify what "traditional Christianity" is in your definition.

    Are you being intentionally slippery?
     
  19. Stray Cat

    Stray Cat New Member

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    Van. Hi again. I would answer my question that I sent you as this: No. He does not. As such was the case with
    me when He dealt with me many years ago. God had mercy on me, as you display Romans 9:16, I can testify
    that it was God that did the saving, all of It, I had nothing and it became real that faith was a gift of God, Ephesians 2:8-9
    Amazing that God would save someone like me. My friend, should we never forget that glorious day.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You asked me and I told you. That is not being slippery. I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you.

    I will once again offer my Christian tradition (you asked for the tradition I was steeped in, whatever that means):

    I come from a Southern Baptist tradition.
    I was saved in a small SBC church in Marietta GA.
    I moved to Nashville and joined a SBC church.
    I live in SC now and am a member of a SBC church.

    My tradition is evangelical Baptist. I am a Southern Baptist.

    I am steeped in the writings of Charles Spurgeon, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, John Calvin, J.I. Packer, John MacArthur, and John Piper. I also have extensively read Tim Keller, D.W. Moody and A W. Tozer.

    The book that has impacted me the most (aside from the Bible) is Piper's Desiring God.

    I earned a Bachelor degree in Religion from a Baptist college and a Master degree in Theology from a Baptist seminary (associated with the SBC).

    I have preached and taught at several SBC churches.

    I celebrate Christmas as a time to reflect on the Incarnation but my favorite is Resurrection Sunday (the whole week, actually).

    That is my tradition. If you do not understand then ask, but don't pretend I am avoiding answering.

    As I said, when I speak of traditional Christianity in context of the Atonement I am referring to the "classic view" as opposed to the "Latin view". That is, God sent His Son to redeem man, He offered Jesus as an offering, He was pleased to crush Him, the Cross was God's predetermined plan. Christ gave Himself as an offering. He was obedient even to death on a cross. He died for our sins. He ransomed us from sin and death, freed us from its bondage, was made sin for us, became a curse for us, suffered under the powers of darkness for us, and by His stripes we are healed. He became one of us, was tempted in all points as we are, but remained obedient. He died in solidarity with man so that men could live in unity with Him.

    This is called the "classic view" because it was the Christian understanding until the 11th century when Anselm developed the Satisfaction Theory, then Aquinas reworked that theory, then the Reformers reformed that theory by replacing merit with justice (the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement). Anselm to the Reformers is called the "Latin view" because it began in the Roman Catholic Church. It introduces a type of substitution and removes Satan as the object of Christ's suffering and death.

    Again, if you do not understand ask. Don't pretend I avoided answering your question directly.
     
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