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Featured BPS Part 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, May 5, 2020.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Arthur King said

    Important point of clarification for this thread. Wages are not paid. Wages are earned or received. Thus, death is not paid either. There is no such thing as a "debt of death" as many penal substitution advocates mistakenly claim. That is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.

    On the cross, Jesus receives the wages of sin undeservedly because he is without sin, thus justice demands that these wages be taken back, that death be reversed, hence the resurrection.


    And what you posted I believe to be the righteousness of God.without the law.

    The soul that sins, it shall die.------Yet;

    Jesus the Son of God, the sinless one, by the Father was made to be sin and the Son thereby, GAVE his life.

    Died for our souls, Therefore God the Father raised the Son from the dead. The righteousness of God that gave life apart from the law. See Gal, 3:19-21

    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    Because of that, we can be made the righteousness of God in him.
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Something to note, the payment was made in full prior to Jesus' physical death, John 19:28-30.
     
  3. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Most humans cannot declare themselves dead either. Jesus said, "it is finished." He then in Spirit split the vail of the temple and all in one instant set the captives free in sheol. It was a few hours later, the physical blood was spilled. But Jesus had already been sweating drops of blood. He was already beaten beyond recognition. The cross did not kill Jesus. Jesus left his body on the cross. It was already just the shell that was placed in the grave. His soul took the thief to Paradise and returned to meet the Spirit in a body that was just a ghost. A body that had the nail prints and even the spear hole in the side. Jesus was walking around with Abraham, Samuel, David, and all the prophets showing them what had become of this city of Jerusalem. They all went to Paradise after 3 days. You do not have to accept the truth, but you cannot refute it either.

    If one claims Jesus did not die, the dead body was proof. The soul and spirit do not die upon physical death. It is the fallen, adamic body that dies. That body went back to dust, as God declares all flesh does. Jesus' body just turned to dust faster than most, even though Joseph attempted to preserve it. There is no body to prove Jesus even existed. The whole account is given by faith, and the Word of their testimony.
     
  4. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Jesus still has His Body. He was raised bodily.
     
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  5. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was given a glorified body.

    You can keep your current body if you want to, but Paul says, all will not sleep, but all will be changed.

    All resurrections are bodily, but the flesh changes to the glorified body. The one Adam had before disobeying God.
     
  6. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    As far as I know Adam was flesh and blood and his body was not glorified.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No not then. He did not do that until His bodily ascension, Acts of the apostles 1:9, as it is so written, Ephesians 4:8, ". . .When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    A popular myth, Dr Luke recorded that His drops of sweat was like great drops of blood on the ground, Luke 22:44. The word he used was the Greek, ὡσεί.

    Jesus finished the atonement on the cross, John 19:28, -". . knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." τετελεσται. The very word, "It is finished."
     
  8. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Well, I do not know what to tell you except the spirit died and since the spirit is the glorified body part, then Adam was a son Of God. Also, because that is how God created us. If you think that God created fallen humans, I cannot help you. Not that you need my help. God has not yet revealed such truth to you, or reading comprehension is lacking. You have free will to choose which option.
     
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    We have a look at the Glorified Jesus in the Book of the Revelation and Adam was nothing like that in the Garden of Eden:

    Revelation 1:13-17 (KJV) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
     
  10. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    You can have that debate some day with Christ himself.

    About ascension, that means up. How do you go down at the same time as going up?

    The verse you quoted proves my point. His soul went to heaven, and the Spirit went to sheol all at the same time as Atonement, the gift of salvation to all humanity. Proof Calvanist are wrong, Psalm 68:19
    "you took gifts among mankind,
    yes, even among the rebels,
    so that Yah, God, might live there."

    The Atonement was for all mankind.

    If you think all the OT saints remained for all 40 days, that is fine. I would assume after waiting for hundreds of years, they kept asking Jesus to take them up after the 3 days.
     
  11. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So you think all mankind gets Christ's glorified body. That is pretty ambitious. I was thinking more on the lines of mount of transfiguration. The one Jesus had while actually living among humans that he did not show to everyday people.
     
  12. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Good question that you asked. Above my pay grade. I think that Adam was just like us except he would not have aged or been subject to disease and infirmities until he sinned and was expelled from the Garden of Eden when he became sick and died just as we do. Adam, why did you listen to Eve?
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Acts if the Apostles 2:27-31. '"For you will not leave my soul on Hades, nor will you allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'
    Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne.
    He, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.'

    Luke 24:37-39 'But they were terrified and frightened, supposing they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."'

    Our Lord's body did not return to dust. It was the same body that appeared to the disciples, but changed and glorified.
     
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  14. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Nope. A physical body cannot go through any physical substance. There is no back door to that cave. The body was gone, when the angels removed the stone.

    A ghost can have and Jesus' ghost did have all the marks from the cross.

    Not one single physical body of dust defined flesh can enter heaven. Enoch was translated. If you can figure that one out without using a star trek transporter, let us all know. Moses did not die, but retained a different body that he received at birth. One that showed no age changes. Elijah and Moses both materialized (star trek transporter ?) right in front of the disciples. Then Jesus talks about Elijah coming and going, more transporter talk. NOT REINCARNATION!!! It was a physical body, not a formless soul. There is a difference. What does an emotion or thought look like outside of the body? If you cannot figure that one out, you do not exist in the 21st century. This thread is a thought, not a physical body. An emoji is an emotion, not a physical body. Of course Hinduism did not have 21st century facts. They thought black and white text, and emoji's could travel from one body to another without an internet. Well, yes, spirits can, but the soul goes through the eyes and fingers. Texting 101, not the same, no soul re-incarnation. We do the soul thing constantly hundreds of times a day, without rebirth. Nor exchanging bodies.

    All of the OT saints were not left in Abraham's bosom. They immediately came out, the second, Jesus said, "It is finished." It was by the power of his Spirit, call it a Ghost if you must. However the mutilated body, just disappeared, because Mary could NOT touch his body. Her hand would go through it. Since Mary had never seen cgi on tv, it may have given her a heart attack. Then Jesus would have had to heal a distressed body. It was just easier to say, "don't touch me, please."

    The concept about walking around as a ghost or spirit for 3 days has to come from God. Can anyone find the concept in any cultural setting known to man? Also the abilty to transport a body in and out of physical reality comes from God.

    The only reason the the mutilated human physical body was not changed, and just returned to dust, is because that is the claim of the Bible. Scripture shows Jesus had both a physical and spiritual body at the same time. It is only logical that the physical body died, and according to scripture cannot change, but has to go back to dust. Since Jesus met Mary before a 3 day period, he still had to go to heaven where the body with the soul is was. It was only after returning to heaven 3 days from the cross, Jesus had both a glorified spiritual body and physical touchable body at the same time.
     
  15. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    No, Jesus rose from the dead bodily.

    John 2:21 (KJV) But he spake of the temple of his body.
     
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  16. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    After Adam sinned he was just like us. I mean science has one thing right. We are a mutated copy of Adam, each and every one of us.

    Before the fall. Adam was like God, the image of God. The son of God. The spiritual light that lightens the whole world body.

    Before Adam's disobedience there was only perfection. Thinking that a physical body was just miraculously "prevented from", is not logical nor reasonable. It is wishful, imaginative, but only speculation. God could do the same to these bodies, that is why the whole of creation was put under bondage as a curse for Adam's disobedience.
     
  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    What is it that is not logical or reasonable? Adam is our father.
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Nope, not his mutated body from Adam, that returned to dust. His glorified body and soul went from the cross to heaven.

    The glorified body did rise from the dead body on the cross. The dead physical body turned to dust. That is the only thing according to the Scriptures a physical body can do. They did bury his physical body in the tomb. Instead of sealing it, they should have just watched the body turn to dust. The world will never know what Happened. The tomb was sealed from view.
     
  19. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Your wishful thinking is not logical nor reasonable. Who on earth wants to live forever in a miserable body?
     
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Genesis 18:14. 'Is anything too hard for the LORD?' You are supposed to answer, 'no' to that question. His resurrected body was physical and not ghostly (Luke 24:36-43).
    Because Jesus had risen (Mark 16:6 etc.). His body had not seen corruption.

    May I also say that you have hi-jacked this thread? If you want to discuss the resurrection, start your own thread.
     
    #20 Martin Marprelate, May 7, 2020
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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