As a Boston fan, one who's been to at least 100 Fenway Park games, I take exception to this. I've never seen ANYTHING like that happen.
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Braves/Dodgers, Pirates/Cards, Rays/Red Sox, Tigers/A's: Who wins it all?
- Thread starter thisnumbersdisconnected
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As a Boston fan, one who's been to at least 100 Fenway Park games, I take exception to this. I've never seen ANYTHING like that happen.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Haven't heard of it, either. I do remember the Dodgers fan who dared show up in Dodger Blue at Candlestick. He's still trying to learn to walk again.
Now, back to the thread topic ...
I still say, Cardinals in six, even though they aren't playing the Tigers as I predicted.
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Red Sox take it it 5 or less.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
St. Louis will do two things against the Red Sox the Tigers couldn't: Shut them down in the late innings and not blow themselves up with self-inflicted wounds. The Cardinals are strong on the mound with Adam Wainwright and Michael Wacha (Wacha Wacha). The NLCS ended soon enough that these guys can now go in Games 1, 2, 5 and 6 respectively. That's a Red Sox nightmare waiting to jump out of the closet in the middle of the night.
The Cards' bullpen strength -- embodied in Trevor Rosenthal, Carlos Martinez, Seth Maness et al -- will present problems for Boston in the late innings. Carlos Beltran will do what Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder couldn't -- hit in the clutch with runners in scoring position. The Cards are far more versatile and athletic than the Detroit team we just watched flounder against a good but not great Boston pitching staff. The Sox will discover this the hard way.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Seems I was wrong about Wainwright, at least last night. Ouch! Cards are in a hole early.
Can't help but think, from their poor performance after the blown call at second, that the delay while the play was debated somehow influenced the way the game was played afterwards. But then again, Kozma's whiff on the ball might have been a show of tight nerves anyway. Have to see what happens tonight.
Can't help but think, from their poor performance after the blown call at second, that the delay while the play was debated somehow influenced the way the game was played afterwards. But then again, Kozma's whiff on the ball might have been a show of tight nerves anyway. Have to see what happens tonight.
It wasn't going to be the Cardinals night, that's for sure. I think you're right about the nervousness. I'd say the Red Sox have a lot of veterans that have been to the playoffs so aren't as tense. The Cardinals have some veterans as well, but not as many. I was surprised to hear that Beltran had never been to the World Series.
The pop-up that Wainwright called and then backed away from should have been handled by Molina. All pitchers know this. When I saw that play I immediately was flashed back to the Twins/A's ALDS of 2002 when the Twins allowed two pop-ups to land near the pitcher's mound untouched in the same game, and almost allowed a third one!
I had picked the Cards in six. We'll see.
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The Red Sox were beneficiaries of some pretty poor play early, by the St.L. shortstop. But can you believe they gave Steve Drew a hit for that ball that fell between Wainright and Molina ?
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Last I knew, if a call was made by one player to back off, and then the play wasn't made, that is an error. But the scoring throughout the post-season has been pretty lame, if you ask me.
It is a judgment call by the scorekeeper, has nothing to do with guys calling to make the catch. The phrase in the rulebook is if the ball could have been caught with "ordinary effort" an error may be charged. For Molina it was not an ordinary effort and traditionally pitchers almost always defer to a fielder to make that catch. I was wondering where the first baseman was on that play. He should have made the catch.
I've kept score many, many times for youth games and this kind of a play happens a lot. I never score it an error, since no one mishandled the ball. But at the MLB level, it should be, especially something easily caught by the pitcher. I guess the scorer figured since the pitcher almost never makes "ordinary effort" to make that play he didn't score it an error.
Another possibility is the rule that a scorer cannot score an error on mental mistakes. Ex: with no one on base, shortstop cleanly fields a ground ball but does not throw to first base. No error charged. Since Wainwright called for it, then backed off the scorer might have thought it a mental mistake and therefore no error.
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thisnumbersdisconnected
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Different St. Louis ballclub tonight. Though Wacha threw 117 pitches through six, he was still strong, except for the error he made throwing that low outside fastball to Big Papi. The bats came through, and so did the bullpen. Now to St. Louis with the series tied 1-1. Gonna be a good one!
The Red Sox displayed some beer-league softball defense, throwing the ball into left field. Bone-head play.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Same kinda stuff the Cardinals did the night before. Kozma acquitted himself nicely after committing those two errors the night before. That bare-handed field-and-throw in the eighth was all-star stuff.
Saltalamacchia also made a Little League mistake by not leaving the base to catch the ball.
My introduction to Kozma was his backing off a fly ball in last year's NLCS which was called an infield fly rule, saving his hide. That was another one of those "ordinary effort" judgment calls, which the umps got wrong.
My introduction to Kozma was his backing off a fly ball in last year's NLCS which was called an infield fly rule, saving his hide. That was another one of those "ordinary effort" judgment calls, which the umps got wrong.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Actually, that one was right out of the rule book:
Once the call was made, Kozma could do anything with the ball he wanted. Once the call is made, the batter is out, and the runners advance at their own peril.
Yeah, I know the rule intimately. I'm saying it should not have been called an infield fly because it was not a play that only required "ordinary effort".
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
The ball dropped between them. Kozma had called Matt Holliday off of it, but Holliday didn't hear him, but at the last second saw him. They both veered away from the ball. For the purpose of the infield fly, any infielder who has a chance to play the ball, even in the short outfield, the ball is considered an infield fly. I remember the call. It was made by left-field umpire Sam Holbrook, and he and MLB executive Joe Torre both defended the call after the game. If they had to back away from the ball for it to drop, they were making "ordinary effort" up to that point.
Holliday pulled up short and Kozma stepped away.
There is no "short outfield" rule, there is no "chance to play the ball" rule. The rule is "ordinary effort". Kozma had to run out about 50 feet into the outfield. This was not an ordinary effort for an infielder. Also, watch at about the 2:50 mark of the video. The left field umpire doesn't call infield fly until the ball is about to hit the ground.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121005&content_id=39509938&c_id=mlb
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thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Again, if any infielder has a shot at playing the ball, the infield fly rule can apply, if all other criteria are met.
Really? Better tell all those infielders to stop running into the outfield to make a play then, since that's supposedly beyond ordinary effort for them. Trust me, ITL, you know as well as I do there is at least one play a game an infielder makes in the outfield, and as long as the infielder can make a play, the infield fly rule can be called.
So? He can call it at any time, and you don't know if he shouted out the call before the sign or not. That, too, happens all the time.
Example: I played in the old Big Eight. At Oklahoma, I attempted to steal third, and heard the umpire call "Safe!" But when I got up to take the bag and dust myself off, he said, "Get outta here, Short! You're out." I protested, telling him I heard him say "Safe!" He said, "Yeah, but I used my hand to tell 2,500 people you're out, so git!"
You're just plain wrong. The rule states, "ordinary effort", not "if a player can make a play". Guys make plays all the time that require more than ordinary effort.
So if the ump waited until the last second to see if Kozma was going to make the play that is a very strong indication that it was not a play requiring ordinary effort.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Kozma's "effort" was simply ordinary for any MLB shortstop. He wouldn't have had to dive, leap, or do a somersault to catch the ball. Therefore, "infield fly" is a valid call. I said so then, and I still say so.
Again, that ignores whether or not he shouted out "Infield fly!" before the sign was made. Sixty thousand screaming fans wouldn't have heard it, but the 12 or so players on the field would have. Besides, this was a year ago. Long under the bridge, like Don Denkinger's blown call in the '85 series. Whitey Herzog responded to a reporter who stated flatly that the call cost the Cardinals the Series by saying, "Hitting .185 overall and .120 with runners in scoring position is what cost us the Series."