Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

"...sooooooooooooo"? I think that it is too much to ask a lady to participate in combat unless it was like in the old west where the Indians were attacking the wagon train and women fired. Other than self-defense situations like that, I do not think that women should be in combat. I think that we should revert to the policy that worked during WW II. I guess that I believe in women and children first.

 

Church Mouse Guy,

I agree with you on your last post.

Men are distracted from battle for wanting to defend women soldiers. And it just causes many other problems. Plus, I believe that there are some things that are a man's place and some things that are a woman's. Combat just isn't a woman's place.

 

Thank you, PatrioticAmerican!

Your location made me laugh!

 

Women in combat is a separate issue and should be discussed separately. Let's not light that one off here!

The fact the BG Karpinski, Commander, 800th MP Brigade, was female had nothing to do with her failure to properly perform her duties. She was, by the way, in charge of all theater MP detention operations - not all MP operations but just those dealing with detention facilities - and not just Abu Ghraib. Other female officers have performed very well at their duties in all specialties.

COL Pappas, Commander, 205th MI Brigade, was male and failed just the same at his duties. Other male officers have failed at their duties.

Both officers failed because they didn't do their jobs correctly, they didn't hold their subordinates to proper standards of conduct, they didn't personally stay in touch with what was happening, they didn't seek proper approval for some decisions they made, and they didn't take immediate corrective action at the first signs of trouble.

BG Karpinski, however, did seem more defensive about her lack of performance when first questioned about it by MG Taguba. She did permit MI personnel to misuse MP personnel at the BCCF (Abu Ghraib) which is something most senior MP officers would never do. She also had been apprehended for shop lifting at a military base prior to deployment. That's not at all the standard of conduct desired for such a senior officer and especially one in charge of a Military Police unit.

 

We can debate the correctness or incorrectness of our policy all day and night. However, those we've sent are there to carry it out. To them it matters only that what they're doing is worth the price they may have to pay for it. Debate first and then fight with full support or not at all. We're fighting now and this is not the time to debate whether or not we should be.

 

In the midst of all this discussion about our standards of conduct let us not loose sight of the nature of the enemy we fight. Let us remember all the cries for justice that were heard the day after September 11, 2001. Let us remember all the disgust we felt when we viewed vivid true torture and murder committed at the hands of our enemies. Let us be very careful that in our zeal to do the right things we not tie our hands from doing what must be done. Take a close look at our enemy, understand their way, know their lack of any law of land warfare, put yourself in the shoes of their victims, and put yourself - if you can - in the shoes of someone tasked to defend against such a ruthless enemy. Those of you who have such high expectations of perfection in our conduct - an admirable goal - put yourself in the place of our leaders who must balance protecting America with treating even this vile enemies as human beings. Ask yourself if you think that's an easy job and one you could do better without any failure whatsever. Ask yourself if you'd want your fellow citizens to support you or constantly be on your case falsely accusing you of purposefully conducting evil while you sought to make use of the maximum extent of the law to take on the enemies we face. Put yourself in the shoes of a true American warrior who can respect his fellow enemy soldier as a soldier and treat them accordingly but who must face an enemy who is not at all a soldier and knows no honor whatsoever. Asks yourself if you - especially those who cry the loudest - if you could do any better, if these enemies would treat you any better, or whether you could give your fellow Americans the security they demand by your own actions.

 

That's a very interesting comment, ASLANSPAL, from the originator of this thread!

There's no such thing as secular life and Christian life for a Christian, ASLANSPAL. A Christian remains a follower of Christ no matter where he or she walks whether on the battlefield, in the factory, in the boardroom, at home, in church, or wherever.

Our nation has taken no step down in the current war on terrorism. Some of number failed us but the rest have taken them to task on it. We need to keep our heads up, our spirits high, and move on with the fight before us.

May God help us in our war against terrorism that our great nation my quickly and completely end the vile evil they - the terrorists - have brought upon peaceful people everywhere. May He keep those we've sent to fight safe and sound from all harm. May He keep their families secure and together while they are far away doing their duty. May He give all courage, strength, wisdom, and most of all, resolve to support the cause.

 

Dragoon68,
I am glad that there is someone like you who stands up for the American soldier Our men in uniform do not have an easy task but we cannot allow them to stray off the course of performing thier moral duty. Not all soldiers are Christians , I realize that, and so I can understand to some degree why they are more dependant on doing what they think is best even if it is wrong. I just pray that through all these troublesome times that we are going through that we do not lose our focus on God and pray for his will to be done and I pray that these unfortunate events that have been happening at Guantanamo and Abu Gharib will soon pass and that our leaders will take it upon themselves to do what is right.

 

Excellent, Rocko9, absolutely excellent!

 

Dragoon68: "Then, as a citizen, do YOUR job right, and give support to those you've sent to defend the liberty you enjoy."

If you knew me, you would know that i directly spend
40 hours a week doing this exactly this and indireclty
probably spend another 60 hours a week doing the same thing.

Dragoon68: "Don't harm their reputation by edorsing lies, exaggerations, or distortions which expand the misconduct of a few misfits unto all. Learn the truth and spread that instead."

I deny your accusations (though they are so broad in
scope i really don't know what they are, but generically
i AM NOT like you describe nor have ever been and am never
likely to be) and will commence counter-allegations.

I note that if 1 in a thousand soldiers/sailors/air men
mistreated prisioners we would have 2,400 cases to try.
The number of cases is less than three dozen.

Church mouse guy: "The officer in charge of Abu Ghraib was a female, which again brings into question the role of women in war zones--I think that we should revert to the WW II policy whereby women were not used in combat and in war zones."

Your saying is hard and anti-women. In the war on terror all
military is always in a combat/war zone. Not making women
military is also NOT an option, for all civilian women are
in the combat zone of the war against terror and are in the
war zone where terrorist act.

Poncho: "The troops you and I support were not sent to Iraq to defend the liberty we enjoy."

I don't think you have a grip on reality here.
The terrorists in Iraq are going to kill people if we are
there or not. And if we aren't there, they will probably export
their terror to the states.

But by your logic, why should i supporting troops in defense
of Canisteo? What has Canisteo ever done for me?

 

Ed, I can't take you seriously sometimes. This is the wrong place, I have been told, to stand up for the historic, traditional military, but you wrote:

Your saying is hard and anti-women. In the war on terror all
military is always in a combat/war zone. Not making women
military is also NOT an option, for all civilian women are
in the combat zone of the war against terror and are in the
war zone where terrorist act.

Ed, I will be brief--I think that you are the one who is hard and anti-woman for wanting to put ladies in uniform and hand them a gun and say well, everybody is in a combat zone nowadays so what if ladies are dying in combat, too.

But then, Ed, the real human rights abuse in Latin America is in Castro's Cuba and Chávez's Venezuela, not that the left cares.

 

Church mouse guy: "Ed, I can't take you seriously sometimes."

I know. You have never given me the consideration of reading
my posts and trying to figure out what kind of person i am.
I suspect right on this board you can find that i am
a supporter of President Bush, the American Military,
human rights in the world - to name a few. So your
generic allegations about me don't even make sense
(i.e i haven't the foggies what you are talking about).
So i have a hard time taking you very seriously.

Church mouse guy: "Ed, I will be brief--I think that you are the one who is hard and anti-woman for wanting to put ladies in uniform and hand them a gun and say well, everybody is in a combat zone nowadays so what if ladies are dying in combat, too."

The front line goes through your living room. YOu are
going to deny the women there a gun?

 

All I have to go on, Ed Edwards, are your posts on this thread. You may be one fine fellow in your 100 hours per week of service. If so, then that's wonderful and thanks for your service whatever it may be. I certainly don't want to be critical of what I don't know about.

However, the key message you've repeated on this forum is "torture and humiliation are not American values" which, per se, is completely true, but in effect has continued to reinforce the idea - the lies, exaggerations, and distortions - that this is a widespread "cultural" problem within the military from top to bottom.

I don't recall you ever lending one bit of support to the fact that these acts - aside from they not being torture - are not typical of American troops now or in modern times. Not once have you offered any support to our troops that serve regularly without committing any such misdeeds nor would tolerate no such misconduct. Not once have you offered any support for the many facts I've presented on this subject. Not once have you shown any interest in discerning the differences between torture, mistreatment, and legal interrogation techniques. Your response has consistently been the same.

The medicine doesn't taste so good when you have to take it yourself does it? You don't need to "commence" because you already did that when you told me to "Do my job right." You need to do YOUR job right here on this forum. If you're really about supporting our troops then do so right here in the midst of this protracted "debate" that has, with few exceptions, attempted to drag down the reputations of every member of the US Armed Forces - top to bottom - and it's civilian leadership and, for that matter, the whole nation claiming, more or less, that we need to whip ourselves endlessly for our "evil" acts. Do YOUR job, Ed Edwards.

 

That's a positive statement, Ed Edwards, and one worth repeating loud and clear.

 

If feel like i'm, beilng penalized because of things i
didn't say.

Dragoon68: //You don't need to "commence" because you already did that when you told me to "Do my job right."//

Again, the "do my job right" was GENERIC, intended for all,
including my self. I failed to say it was Generic in
almost 1/3 of my posts ???

Dragoon 68: "However, the key message you've repeated on this forum is "torture and humiliation are not American values" which, per se, is completely true, but in effect has continued to reinforce the idea - the lies, exaggerations, and distortions - that this is a widespread "cultural" problem within the military from top to bottom. "

Yep, i failed in some posts to note the number
of persons practicing humiliation is under 1/10 of 1%
So even though i did mention it in other posts, i should
be dissed?

 

Silence can be a real problem.

Okay, I accept that! I'm sorry I took it the wrong way.

That was a good point. Give us some more!

 

Closed