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Featured Calvin & Arminius were both wrong

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Gup20, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    The point in Calvinism from which all other points flow is "total depravity"... the notion that man is too sinful and disconnected from God to choose "good" or to choose "life" and that a sinful man cannot motivate God's grace. Arminius' position is the opposite and says man can choose God and his will can motivate God. However, I believe that both positions make the same, fattally flawed assumption; both assume that faith leads directly to salvation. In reality, salvation is INDIRECT. Faith qualifies one as a descendant of Abraham and then, in a separate step, the descendants of Abraham are chosen to inherit Christ's righteousness. This is why the debate never ends... both are very wrong about the nature of salvation, having both make the same incorrect assumption.
     
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The burden is on you to prove your assertion from scripture.
     
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  3. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Man, I was hoping this thread was going to be about baptism.
     
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  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You have to show that Paul was wrong when he talked about natural Man now being dead to God and spiritual things!
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    What? God cannot speak to the dead?

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
     
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  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Except that you are mischaracterizing Arminianism (at least Classical Arminianism) on this point. Both Calvinists and Classical Arminians believe in "total depravity" and that humans cannot, on their own, choose God. As Roger Olson (a prominent Southern Baptist Arminian) has said: "Calvinists and Arminians agree, against Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, that the sinner’s will is so depraved and bound to sin that it cannot respond positively to the gospel call without supernatural grace."

    Where they differ is whether that grace is irresistible or not.

    As to your other points, I cannot understand how they really affect things. The real divide is between those who believe that their works must add to the grace the God provides and those who do not, whether justification is a completed work or a continuing process. Arminians and Calvinists, despite their differences, are in agreement on those matters.
     
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  7. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    No I don't. I simply have to show that God directly refuted the notion that a totally depraved man has no capacity to choose God.
    Challenge Accepted:

    Deu 30:1-19 NASB
    1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
    6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
    11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
    12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
    13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
    14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
    19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

    Here you have it. Irrefutable and undeniable proof that Calvinism is wrong. Deuteronomy 30 crushes any possibility of Calvinism. This is undeniable proof that God has set the choice of life or death before man. He says it is "not too difficult" for us to make the choice (even in our depraved state, it's still not too difficult for us to choose). He says the choice is "not made in heaven" by God. He says 3 times in this passage that it is a choice God sets before us and commands us to choose. Additionally, we know that - because the context is circumcision of the heart - we know that this passage is talking about Salvation. Additionally, Paul explicitly states this passage refers to salvation:

    Rom 10:5-10 NASB
    5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

    As to salvation being an INDIRECT result of faith... consider the following:

    Galatians 3:8
    The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

    So Abraham was made righteous because God preached the gospel to him and he believed the gospel! This means Abraham was the first “Christian” – the first person saved by grace through their faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul confirms that Abraham was indeed the first believer:

    Galatians 3:9
    So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    Luke 19:9
    And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

    Galatians 3:14
    in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    Hebrews 2:16
    For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.



    Galatians 3:7
    Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.


    Galatians 3:26
    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 3:29
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


    Galatians 4:30
    But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”


    Romans 9:6
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
    7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


    Isaiah 54:1
    “Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

    Colossians 1:12
    giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

    Genesis 17:2 (KJV)
    And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
    3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
    4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
    5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
    6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
    7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
    8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

    Here in Genesis 17, we see that God calls Abraham the "father of many nations" and then immediately gives a promise to those very descendants. (side point- this is why Replacement Theology is totally wrong -- the original replacement theologists were the Jews who thought that this covenant was to the Jews only... clearly, this covenant of faith was always intended for the "many nations" not only the one nation of Israel).

     
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  8. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Because the WHOLE POINT of total depravity is that man in his depraved state cannot choose God nor can his worthless, sinful actions motivate God's grace. However, once you have a proper understanding of Salvation -- that it is indirect -- we see that God's promise to give Christ's righteousness to the descendants of Abraham as an "everlasting inheritance" is what motivates God... and faith merely qualifies a person for HUMAN ADOPTION into the family of Abraham... faith merely qualifies a person as a "descendant of Abraham" ... and then descendants of Abraham INHERIT the promise of salvation. So it is NOT that our megar, dirty, and unworthy faith has any affect on God ... nor that our will causes God's action as BOTH Calvin and Arminius presupposed... but rather, when we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we become qualified as "descendants of Abraham" and then all the descendants of Abraham INHERIT salvation because of God's promise to Abraham.

    Gen 17:7
    “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

    We don't need to be regenerated to choose human adoption.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as God can and does wake up those who are spiritual dead, but they cannot and will not wake up themselves!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as it comes down to how one views what the intent of God was with the death of Jesus, did God intend to have all lost sinners potentially saved, or to have some really saved?
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those who were able to actually choose though to accept were the faithful remnant saved out beforehand by God Himself!
     
  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I'm trying to stay with you, but I'm having a hard time. Both Arminians and Calvinists believe that man in his depraved state cannot choose God. And both would never say that their will motivated God to do anything.

    You seem intent on begging the question. Where does faith come from? For Calvinists, it is a gift of God. For Arminians, the ability to choose God at long last is only possible by the grace of God. So faith, even to an Arminian is a gift of God. But faith, to both, is the gateway and perfection of salvation.

    This is not true for some other Christians, who (if I may put it extremely indelicately) are really closer to an Islamic conception of grace than a Reformed understanding: God provides grace that we, through our actions, can appropriate to add to our own righteousness of works.

    I know you are proud of your two-step conception of salvation, but it really has nothing to do with anything either theoretical or practical.
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That last group that you mentioned here would be really teaching another Gospel though, correct?
     
  14. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    No, God chose the group “the descendants of Abraham” but we get to choose whether or not to join that group by whether or not we choose to have faith in the gospel.

    John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham." Only, he never realized that ALL CHRISTIANS are saved by being qualified as a descendant of Abraham.

    Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
    giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
     
  15. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
    7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
    8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
    9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;


    Nehemiah 9:7
    You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
    8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.


    John 6:64
    But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
    65 And He was saying, “For this reasonI have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


    1Peter 1:2
    [chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


    John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

    So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

    Galatians 3:7
    Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

    Galatians 3:9
    So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    Galatians 3:18
    For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

    Galatians 3:29
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

    Romans 9:4
    who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenantsand the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
    5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
    6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
    7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


    Calvin didn’t realize that allChristians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

    As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.
     
  16. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am going out for a few hours, so I will respond more fully to your post this evening, but please stop with this "Here you have it" nonsense. That is not an argument, it is a tired rhetorical exercise that accomplishes nothing other than making the writer feel good about himself.
     
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  17. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    It got your attention then? Interesting. I look forward to your response. I’ve been bringing up this argument from Deuteronomy 30 for years and none have been willing to address it. It’s simply too damning to Calvinism for most Calvinists to even acknowledge it exists. Indeed in another thread just yesterday a Calvinist declared he didn’t even need to read it or consider it because he disagreed with me (this is the most typical response I get from Calvinists).
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God elected the redeemed to be saved Christ Himself.... Chosen by His will, not based upon what our response would be...
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It doesn't say He had to wake them up to speak to them. Don't add to His word.
     
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  20. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    Romans 8:15-17 (NASB) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

    So we see in Deuteronomy 30 that life & death is absolutely a choice he placed before us. He goes further in saying that it is ABSOLUTELY SYNERGISTIC when he says “I call heaven & earth to witness your choice”

    Then Paul makes the same synergistic claim to salvation echoing Deuteronomy 30:19 when he says The Spirit Himself (heaven) testifies (to bear witness) with our spirit (earth) that we are children of God. Note what the synergistic choice does according to Paul; the adoption of sons, the qualification as fellow heirs with Christ.

    Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    There is that same word “blessed with Abraham”... just as Deuteronomy 30:19 says “I have set before you life & death, the blessing & the curse. So choose life...”
     
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