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Calvinism, Arminianism, Free Grace, easy believism, Lordship Salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by AresMan, Sep 9, 2005.

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  1. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Hey James

    Good point! However, I feel that you are wrong to hold "easy believism" is such disdain. God's plan of redemption is so easy that small children can understand and get saved. Jesus has done everything and we must not add anything to His finished Cross. So - this does allow the possibility and reality of abusing this free grace.

    You have rightly reacted against the repugnance of continuing sin in the believer's life. But do any of us not abuse this free grace? Have you reached the point where you are perfect? I haven't! In fact, I'm not even close to perfect!

    You have failed to note that salvation is both justification and sanctification. You have wrongly characterized the free grace position as if it ignores sanctification.

    Justification is easy believism. Jesus taught this in John 3 using the illustration of the brazen serpent. Easy! Just LOOK at the snake. Nothing else is required - for justification. Yet sanctification is parallel with yet distinct from justification. Good works follow imperfectly.

    Heb 10:14 shows that believers are "perfected forever" while yet failing in sanctification.

    Do not judge through failure to see the whole picture.

    Lloyd
     
    #21 ascund, Sep 12, 2005
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Lloyd,

    Who said anything about being perfect? This is my view and it is based on what sin is and mans sin nature and also Gods way and He being holy.

    Let me explain. In my view sin is not a act as much as it is a path away from God. The Bible shows over and over 2 paths to take.

    Mans way..Gods way
    Slaves to sin...controled by the Spirit
    being born...being born again
    In darkness....in light.

    On and on you could go with this. I know you have seen this same picture. Salvation takes on this same idea. We were once on the road to HELL. Now we live for Christ. The path we are now on we SHOULD see growth in Christ. In the book of james we see the writer saying...."show me where your faith is" I like to put it this way...."show me your love".

    Works has nothing to do with salvation as you know. Yet our bodies that are tied to our soul is where the actions of our bodies bring forth the love of our heart.

    If you know me very well, you would also know I love basketball. As a matter of fact...you don't have to know me all that well to know this. If you just watch me you would see me getting up at 6am to play baskball. You could also listen to me talk about basketball. If you came to my house you may find me watching basketball. You would see 3 old basketballs from the early 1900s that i bought and placed over my fire place in the libary.

    You would also know i love books. I have over 3000 books last count. You would see books all over my house....with no place to put them. You would also hear my wife telling me to "NOT BUY ONE MORE BOOK...TILL I STORE WHAT I HAVE."

    We all have things we love. Its easy to see what we love in most cases. I'm sure you have your own things. The point is....just as James says...if you say you have faith in God..I better see some action behind that claim.

    Again...i say..."show me your love!!!" while others think it is crazy to get up at 6am to play ball...i love it...so i do it. Am i a perfect player? NO...but i try my best. Is a new born babe in Christ perfact?..No..but you should see them trying. If you never ever at any time see that person "show their love"......"get up at 6am in the faith type of thing"......James say....NO SHOW...NO FAITH.

    So...back to this path. Some will run down this path and have a ton of growth. others will just "make a stand" for Christ...and hardly move. Others will run...and sit and rest...and run some more. Some may take a few steps off the path..yet always come back.

    the Path is toward GOD. In our sin nature we walked away from God. This path..shows you have repented. Your over all goul is to serve God...not that we always do.....not that sometimes we let God down......not that we do very little at times.. But over all...our life will SHOW or love for HIM.


    people that are saved..and change NOTHING...still go down a path away from God.....are they really saved?


    In Christ...James
     
    #22 Jarthur001, Sep 12, 2005
  3. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Hey James

    Good question!
    The Calvinist doesn't know until they examine the accompanying works figuring that sanctification validates justification. They never know for sure.

    The Arminian likewise examines works to earn justification. They never know for sure. The two are virtually the same.

    Free Grace simply trusts God's promises to impute Christ's righteousness to all who believe regardless of works. If a person has trusted in Jesus, then they are saved no matter what you think of their works.

    Lloyd
     
    #23 ascund, Sep 12, 2005
  4. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    And if a person has trusted in Jesus, then it will be evident in their life, as Jesus, James and the Apostles tell us in His Word. The evidence will be greater in some than in others, but there will be some evidence.

    There is such a thing as a false profession of faith. Sometimes I wonder if FG'ers ignore or forget that fact.
     
    #24 Andy T., Sep 12, 2005
  5. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Hey Andy

    No! We don't ignore those who make a false profession of faith. But we do note that we cannot see into the heart to make a 100% determination of justification.

    While we can inspect the fruits and come to an idea of whether or not IT APPEARS that a person needs to be saved, this is at best a ROUGH rule of thumb.

    Is it worth imposing the potential for false professors of the faith and the subsequent wish for visible works of sanctification -

    upon

    ones theological description of justification?

    Not for me!

    Justification is yet and always will be by faith in Jesus - even if some make a false profession.
    Lloyd
     
    #25 ascund, Sep 12, 2005
  6. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Who becomes the judge of what constitutes "evidence"? There are people with varying degrees of "spirituality". While you may look at the works of someone and think "this person is definitely saved," someone who is much more "spiritual" than you are may come along and say "Nope, and neither are you, because you're not leading hundreds of souls to Christ every day and fending for yourself in the jungles of Africa."
    How does one dogmatically draw the lines between genuine evidence and legalism when it comes to assurance of salvation?
    Of course, I do not believe in "easy believism." I believe in "simple believism." Belief is always simple, but it often is not easy. It can be difficult for many people to simply believe that there is nothing they can do of themselves to be saved and that they must put their trust completely in Christ alone for salvation. That includes believing that God in the flesh dying upon a cross and rising from the tomb is an actual event that occured in history (miraculous), and that it is actually sufficent to pay the penalty of your sins: this God still lives and can redeem you if you simply believe. That is difficult, but most certainly simple.

    BTW, I think it is humbling to have to put up with justification being at the greatest common denominator. I know for a lot of pastors that I have known who were saved as young adults from a wicked life of sin, it is so easy for them to preach "lordship salvation" to the congregation. After all, they know what they used to be. They have 100% assurace. Why? Well, they don't smoke, drink, inhale, and gamble anymore. They know Christ has changed their lives. This change becomes an easy permanent type of assurance for them, and they can easily preach to others that unless one has a "180 degree turn" in his life, he is not saved. Those of us who were not "gloriously" saved at 6 years of age, who don't remember being saved from "a life of sin," where does our assurance lie, and how do we know if we have had a "180 degree turn"? All I know is what I believe, and that gives me assurance. It is humbling for the "gloriously saved" evangelist to have to accept that his assurance should primarily come from the common denominator: simple belief.
     
    #26 AresMan, Sep 13, 2005
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