Calvinist vs. Arminian preaching

Is the altar call believers coming forward to 'confess Jesus before men' or unbelievers coming forward to accept Christ? The emotionally charged "Just as I am" with emphasis on the "I come" is just the ticket to ensure many decisions for Christ (if not actual conversions). Or, has the formula changed since I stopped going to Arminian churches 30 years ago?

 

I see that as the same as was stated.

That was also covered. I point out that IF one of the lost is among the elect AND IF that lost person is ALSO predestined to be "born-again" at this particular meeting (which they may in fact be predestined for some future meeting years from now and not the present one - remember)

Then and only then - will they suddenly awaken to find themselves a born-again saint, forgiven and in right standing with God - and "able" to hear and respond.

The "problem" for Calvinism is then -- what is the message FOR the born-again saint? is it "continue to persevere in what you are doing" or is it "you are hopelessly doomed you need to stop and turn from the course you are on"?

Obviously - it is the former.

It doesn't matter "to whom"? The lost dead unhearing?? Or the saved born-again forgiven saint that just "woke up" in harmony with God?

Indeed - all the spiritually dead - who are not born-again saints will not hear it.

Are you talking about planting a seed in dead ears?

Are you saying that the dead "can be hardened" to "more dead"?

When is that? While they are dead and unhearing - or only AFTER they are born-again saints? When will it be used to "Save" the lost-dead person?

It appears that in Calvinism it CAN only "save" the saved person but oops! They are already born-again saved saints ... and then... you want to "Save them"??

Basically this all shows that evangelism does not fit Calvinism. That is why Calvinists use Arminian methods to evangelize.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Calvinists do use Arminian methods to evangelize (i.e., invitation). That is why many Calvinist churches are in a state of decline. Only when a man despairs of his own efforts is he prepared to receive the grace of God.

 

Just think of all those poor elect people who don't have a church because the Calvinistic churches have invitations.

Don't you believe that if the church is in a state of decline that it is in God's plan? Surely you don't believe that the Arminian influence is hindering the work of God in His church, do you?

 

Hmm, I guess Paul never did whatever was necessary, or changed his approach (not changed the truth, but just changed his "salesmanship and approach")?

Oh, wait, I guess he did!!

 

Layman,

Here is another passage that seems to support your point:

Looks like Paul went all day seeking to persuade men.

 

Hey, just another thought on this.

Should we model Christ's preaching style or the apostle's preaching style?

Christ had a tendency to keep things hidden and quite at times. He seemed to provoke and run people off.

The apostles on the other hand seemed to persuade and call men to repentance, pleading for them to be saved.

Why the difference? Christ wasn't hear to to call all to be saved while here on earth. He was here to train 12 disciples who were to go into all the world. Christ was hear to provoke and cause division and ultimately atone for the sins of the world.

So, in light of that should we preach more like Christ or the apostles?

 

Also, from time to time I hear people rail against folks responding to the gospel as if it were simply "fire insurance".

I certainly believe if you genuinely believe in Christ, that over time you will mature, bear fruit, and desire to be transformed and conformed to His image because you are tired of your carnal nature coming between you and fellowship with God.

I can't see how in the very beginning, as you first hear the gospel, that the simple desire to belive that Christ can save your eternal soul from eternal punishment for your sins can be a wrong feeling. Even the apostles felt it at first.

Again, I'm not advocating "easy believism", but eternal life was a big "selling point" for the gospel, even by the Apostles.

 

Just think of all those poor elect people who don't have a church because the Calvinistic churches have invitations.

Don't you believe that if the church is in a state of decline that it is in God's plan? Surely you don't believe that the Arminian influence is hindering the work of God in His church, do you? </font>[/QUOTE]The Church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord, to defend,
To guide, sustain, and cherish,
Is with her to the end.
Though there be those that hate her.
False sons within her pale,
Against both foe and traitor
She ever shall prevail.
Samuel Stone

Despite a rising tide of Arminianism, the Holy Spirit continues to save the elect where enough of the Word remains so that men may be brought to the knowledge of their sins and to faith in the forgiveness of sins, which Christ has purchased for all men.

My advise to the Calvinists is "don't ape the Arminians." The altar call is dead people walking.

 

Receiving Christ can happen at any place. It is a matter of the reflection and will of the sinner. Some people find Him while driving their car, others in a motel room while others find Him/and or are found of Him at the altar of a church. For many this is the place to meet with God. The Holy Spirit always attends the witness of His Word wherever and whenever it is set forth as the truth.

 

I see that as the same as was stated.

That was also covered. I point out that IF one of the lost is among the elect AND IF that lost person is ALSO predestined to be "born-again" at this particular meeting (which they may in fact be predestined for some future meeting years from now and not the present one - remember)

Then and only then - will they suddenly awaken to find themselves a born-again saint, forgiven and in right standing with God - and "able" to hear and respond.

The "problem" for Calvinism is then -- what is the message FOR the born-again saint? is it "continue to persevere in what you are doing" or is it "you are hopelessly doomed you need to stop and turn from the course you are on"?

Obviously - it is the former.

It doesn't matter "to whom"? The lost dead unhearing?? Or the saved born-again forgiven saint that just "woke up" in harmony with God?

Indeed - all the spiritually dead - who are not born-again saints will not hear it.

Are you talking about planting a seed in dead ears?

Are you saying that the dead "can be hardened" to "more dead"?

When is that?

While they are dead and unhearing - or only AFTER they are born-again saints?

When will it be used to "Save" the lost-dead person?

It appears that in Calvinism it CAN only "save" the saved person but oops! They are already born-again saved saints ... and then... you want to "Save them"??

Basically this all shows that evangelism does not fit Calvinism. That is why Calvinists use Arminian methods to evangelize.

---

So these questions remain...

In Christ,

Bob

 

Although we find the Gospel presented in different ways in the NT, the actual substance of God's offer of salvation can never be broader than this: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

Why then do we hear such unBiblical inventions as "Accept Jesus into your heart because He has a wonderful plan for your life"? It is because these false preachers, having no confidence in God's plan to save sinners, feel compelled to go beyond His word, and deal in shoddy salesmanship instead. Rather than obey God, and deal with the issue of sin head-on, their so-called gospel is just another appeal to man's selfishness.

The point is not so much that all Arminian preachers fall into this category, because they don't. The point is rather that they are in greater danger of doing so, because they perceive their role as one of convincing man on a purely human level.

As a Calvinistic preacher however, the obligation of my pulpit is one in which I present the facts as clearly and precisely and lovingly as I can. I want to avoid anything that might obscure the message of God's word, because I have a yearning for the salvation of every soul in that room. But as I look into their dear faces, I have absolutely no illusions that this all depends upon my skill as an preacher. I know that the things I present from God's word must now be applied to individual hearts by the Holy Spirit.

My job is seen the first half of Romans 10:17 - "Faith cometh by hearing," and therefore the truth must be presented. But the second half of the verse reveals what the Lord might be pleased to do with what I have preached - "And hearing cometh by the word (Rhema - command) of God." That hearing of faith is a work of grace, and a failure to recognize that sets us on the course toward a false gospel that cannot save.

Little surprise that a certain lawyer-turned-evangelist who boasted that he could win souls on the same basis as he convinced juries, would be forced to admit at the end of his life, "It seems to have been my lot to have made many false conversions."

- Paul

 

Finney said that? Hmmm. Interesting. Of course I think that was the Calvinism in him that led him into his errors

Dean

 

These new theologians of glory appeal to man's desire for improvement. Preaching that our sins stink to high heaven is too negative. These preachers preach neither law nor gospel nor the sufferings of the cross.

They cannot be humble who do not recognize that they are damnable whose sin smells to high heaven. Sin is recognized only through the law. It is apparent that not despair, but rather hope, is preached when we are told that we are sinners. Such preaching concerning sin is a preparation for grace, or it is rather the recognition of sin and faith in such preaching. Yearning for grace wells up when recognition of sin has arisen. A sick person seeks the physician when he recognizes the seriousness of his illness. Therefore one does not give cause for despair or death by telling a sick person about the danger of his illness, but, in effect, one urges him to seek a medical cure. To say that we are nothing and constantly sin when we do the best we can does not mean that we cause people to despair (unless they are fools); rather, we make them concerned about the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Martin Luther, The Heidelburg Disputation

 

Then of course there is the actual Biblical example of Paul and Christ.


Paul: "WE BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

Romans 11

Luke 7

Such arminian "means" trying to "motivate" the lost to "decide" for Christ.


In Christ,

Bob