Calvinists, answer this one for me.

Just looking for Biblical quotes...help a brother out?

Sco

 

Think about this Scofield.

If the little children were born hardened, how is it that Jesus would say "suffer the little children to come unto me"? He did not say suffer only the "elect" little children... but just any out of all little children.

How is it that hardened adults would become followers of Jesus of their own accord, and that some, no, perhaps many of His disciples would fall away upon hearing those "hard to hear" messages? If election is true, only those who are regenerated come to Jesus...right? Yet we see in the scriptures that multitudes were drawn and followed him all over the countryside.

If only the elect can come to Jesus, why is it that "all men will be drawn to Him"? It seems that if one must be regenerated before one can come to faith, then only the elect will be drawn to Jesus, but that is not supported in the eye-witness reports contained in scriptures.

I suppose what I am saying is this. Question what you believe, test the scriptures. See if what you understand is consistant with the knowledge that you (man) possess(es) of similar situations. God seldom does things with man that are not consistant among mankind. There are not very many miracles recorded in human history, and no I am not ruling out miracles, but I am saying that God does not rely on miracles for the normal drawing of man in the 21st century. The draw is to the recorded truth. So, test everything. Believe what is true, reject that which is not!

 

Jesus beckoning of little children to sit on his lap has nothing to do with election.

As I already pointed out, you are wrong. the logical order of regeneration and faith is not what election stands on. You beat this drum but it is the wrong drum. Election stands on teh revealed word of God. If there is any connection, it is that regeneration before faith stands on election, not the other way around. Think through it and you should be able to see what I mean by that.

You are wrong. I believe that Christ died for the sins of the world. I believe that if every single persons repents and believes, Christ's atonement was sufficient for it.

Saving grace is only given to the elect. Common grace is given to all men.

[ March 01, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

There is but one grace!

 

But clearly, it manifests itself in different ways to different people. There is grace that saves; there is grace that sustains; there is grace that sends rain on the just and the unjust alike; there is grace that restrains. I won't quibble over whether it is one grace or multiple graces. The point is that grace does different things for different people and different circumstances.

 

For the children being not yet born nor have done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand... It is not of him that willeth or him that runneth but of God that sheweth mercy... Who does the election?... God.

You cannot get election because you want it... You can't will it!... You cannot get election because you worked for it!... It is God's work and out of human hands.

What is interesting about little children is that they know that JESUS LOVES THEM AND THEY ARE GOING TO HEAVEN!... The problem comes as we get older we let all this legalism rob us of the AMAZING GRACE that we already have and we try to balance our actions to what is going to be our final destination... Heaven or hell!... When the only answer is HEAVEN!... HELL is not even in the equation for God's elect children.

Like Moses told the Iraelites facing the Red Sea with Pharoah and his army in hot pursuit with no way of escape... Stand still and see the SALVATION OF GOD... Quit legalizing SALVATION TO DEATH and just accept the fact that JESUS WILL ETERNALLY SAVE ALL HIS SHEEP ergo... ALL HIS CHILDREN... Just like the Word Of God says he will!... Brother Glen

 

of course we all know this to be a figurative statement. childlike as in attitude of innocence and humility

taken within the context of total depravity..

one must first be chosen and drawn by the father.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

next it is the choice of the son..

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

the childlike attitude describes humility to be taught from the holy spirit.
Yet we must not forget the adult reocgnition of the choice for with it brings the necessary persecutions.

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

we are to aproach God in his teaching us as humbled sons yet we also must be prepared for the hatred, persecutions and tribulations for the beliefs we hold.

we might view the bible and its readable statements that sound literal to our carnal minds.
yet the words of God are spirit. the literal presentation are anything but literal. they are representative ideas describing spiritual truths.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

 

NO Larry, there is Grace!

While God's grace prevails, people can hear the Word of God and believe and thereby be saved!

Our human perception of God's Grace is just that, HUMAN PERCEPTION! God is not a Candy merchant who's product is different forms of sugar displayed in a variety of colors. God's Grace is not a commodity that He hands out like candy. God's Grace is how He behaves toward HIS creation.

PEOPLE do different things in accordance with what they understand about God while God's Grace prevails. People change in accordance with what they learn and believe. All knowing God has no reason to change but people do! God changes NOT! Don't you believe scripture?

Your theology is faulty if you think that God changes for us, HE DOES NOT CHANGE, WE DO! As we change our perceptions of the attributes of God change with us. The more we learn of God, the more grace we seem to receive. But it is we who do the changing, God's grace is constant!

You are a pastor and do not know this?

 

Yes Me2, That is true of the one who spoke those words, but you frequently missuse the words of Scripture to support your own agenda.

 

I know ...

God's grace is something that he gives.

Yes I believe Scripture and if you had read my post carefully you would see that I never, in any place, said anything about God changing.

I don't think that. I never said that. I, in fact, do not believe that. YOu need to read more carefully to see what people actually say and respond to that. As I have said before, there are enough genuine differences between your side and ours that it is unnecessary to resort to this type of made up stuff. Don't make stuff up ... respond to what has been said.

I am a pastor, and yes I did know this. You are the one who is making stuff up to create a problem where there is none.

Get out your Bible and study grace. See what God says about it. You will find that what I have said is entirely accurate.

 

Yelsew2,

you continue to tout that it is a childs spirit that he is born with from birth that will admit him into heaven by God simply renewing it to a righteous state.

this is a misnomer. the childs spirit must be brought into death and exchanged with the "spirit of Christ".

you continue to tout that it is the faith of this young child possessed from birth that can enable the child to hear see and understand God.

this is another misnomer. the childs spirit that he possesses from birth is unrighteous and cursed.

He must be given a new Spirit as well as all contained gifts and attributes. It is not the faith of the childs old carnal spirit. it is the faith of the spirit of Christ given to the child.

When the Child is chosen of the father to receive such.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

the "It" being spoken of is "faith".

It is a gift of God. It is the righteous faith of Christ that only God can give to man. for carnal man doesnt possess righteous faith.

without the righteous spirit of Christ within man. Man can only produce unrighteous works.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

the Righteous spirit of Christ is Given to man as a free gift. everything within and associated with the Spirit of Christ is righteous and acceptable before his father. Before our father.
Everything that we produce after receiving this new spirit is a product of the spirit. It is nothing of ourselves. it is a product of God.

 

God's grace is something that he gives.</font>[/QUOTE]Prove it! Give me some of the grace that God has given to you! If you cannot, then you lose the argument!

Just remember, you cannot "behave toward me" in accordance with grace, you must actually give me something identifiable as the Grace God gave to you.

 

Post deleted for unnecessary personal comments.

[ March 01, 2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Prove it by giving you some?? First, why isn't God's word enough of a proof??? I don't understand that. Second, it is God's grace to give, not mine. I cannot give his grace.

That doesn't make sense.

 

If you cannot give to another what "has been given" to you, then you cannot receive what you say "has been given". It was in truth not a transferable commodity! But rather the behavior of another extended to you. In other words it is as I have been saying that you are included in God's good favor towards mankind. That is grace! There is no "prevenient", no "saving", no "other kind" of Grace. There is simply Grace.

Now, the difference comes in the understanding of Grace, which is totally a human endeavor, that God's grace is perceived by man according to the condition of the man, the spiritual maturity level, the environment man finds himself in, and knowledge that the man has of God's word.

ALL the same grace, simply different perceptions.

The reason it doesn't make sense Larry is because you cannot receive that which is not transferred to you, therefore you cannot give me any of the grace you say God has given you...NONE WAS GIVEN! God's gracious behavior toward all mankind includes you!

You have Nothing of God's grace that you can give to another, but you certainly can behave in accordance to the example God has set before all mankind, you to can extend the grace within you to include others by behaving graciously toward them, and thus exemplify the "Christ within you".

 

Yelsew,

That may be the most confusing thing I have ever read here. ON what possible basis can you say that grace has to be able to be given to be received?? There is no scriptural precedent for that and certainly no logical one.

Secondly, why you continually ignore the fact that Scripture talks about different aspects or different things that grace does?? The Bible specifically says that God gives grace (James 4:6). Why not simply believe that?