Can Christian Music be unspiritual?

True, but then that shows that "uplifting" is either not a good qualification, or it needs to be explained better.

And those are usually the churches that complain the loudest about anything contemporary. This shows that alot of that is more cultural, not scriptural.

 

Good point Eric B.

Actually "hymn styles" historically tended to be very similar to the secular song styles of the day. Many 19th century hymns were set to melodies and harmonies of what we call Victorian parlor songs. Not all,but some did indeed follow some of the secular styles.

Even Handel's Messiah is MUSICALLY an opera in the style of the day. handel was primarily an opera composer before he began writing oratorios. So this is a sacred work written in a secular music style that has been very effective through the centuries.

 

On a sidenote: Handel's Messiah was met with very negative reviews when it was first performed. Even before it was completed, the religious community condemned the work for being an improper conflation of sacred and secular. Many of the arguments over today's contemporary CCM mirrors exactly the arguments over Handel's Messiah as well as other sacred oratorios of the day.

 

gb,

first of all, its not fair to claim that I said ALL hymns are good. There are some I don't really think have clear, Biblical messages. Im not sure what you'd object to in the carol you cited, but there are a few I can list as ones that I cringe at singing myself. Otherwise, I think to state that "most hymns speak about what God has done in the past" is a far too narrow view, and is not fair to traditional music.

And yes, I know the difference between hymns and CCM, Im not musically ignorant, and just spouting what Ive been told all my life. BTW, this is NOT what Ive been told all my life. My position is based on my own studies and my own observations.

I am NOT one who is just unwilling to change. Ive stated about a million times that there is MUCH modern music that has value and merit as Godly songs. What some others have said or done in their "fight against anything different" is immaterial to a discussion of what is truly spiritual.

But I found the OP to be really rather brave in this forum. I hope that he wasn't trying to be inflammatory, but the OP did not come across to me as being intentionally mean towards anyone (yet he was called mean-spirited), and I think he had some valid observations.

Much of modern music has become wishy-washy. And it has affected many of the modern-day Christian's way of thinking.

Look at how some people think they are getting these deep theological thoughts from some secular songs? Then when ya look at the song you see that it isn't even a Biblical thought, much less deeply spiritual. Its a problem, and we need to wake up and see it.

Don't take my words as just "fear of change", because thats not what this is. And don't "interpret" them according to what some other group did to Isaac Watts. Its not relevant.

There's going to be a "religious" crowd in every age. There's an entire group of people these days that still refuses to use electricity. Does that mean that ALL modern-day inventions are good? Because of their overreaction against modern-day inventions? No, of course not.

So one group's overreaction in a certain area is not a refutation of OR an evidence FOR either side of our discussion here.

 

No, he was not called mean spirited or anything else. It doesn't look like you are really reading the posts.

 

Thanks for reminding us of that.

 

Exactly. Actually it was never intended to be a "Church" piece it was always intended as a theater piece. Yet it is still very sacred in its use.

 

This is quite a statement. Is it true, and where do you find this in the Scriptures? In fact, I find a lot of the pro-CCM crowd makeing unfounded assertions. It's time that they backed up their statements.

 

Exactly. Actually it was never intended to be a "Church" piece it was always intended as a theater piece. Yet it is still very sacred in its use. </font>[/QUOTE]I would still judge Handel's Messiah as unfit for Christian worship.

1. It's exhibitionistic.
2. Too much attention is given to ornamentation.
3. Too few could actually "sing along" with it.
4. It was the Baroque Era's equivalent of the "We Are the World" benefit concert.

And I could go on. It has this going for it though, it's not rock, which is an irredeemable style.

 

The feel free to refrain from it. You are certainly permitted to be convinced in your own mind, and guaranteed individual sovereignty to set that standard for yourself. I support that and applaud your conviction. I presume, however, that you would likewise permit others to likewise be convinced in their own minds, and likewise guarantee their individual sovereignty to set the standards for themselves, even if it does not coincide with your own on the topic.

 

And so you see what happens. I will post statements with supporting facts and Scriptures, and can Johnv, the great, self-proclaimed discerning seer answer them with like posts? No, he posts drivel like that above.

But I will answer it still. So you feel, like Tim, that any style is okay. I can only find one place in the Scriptures where anything like that is expressed, and it's by a wicked and idolatrous king. Are you sure you want to ally yourself with him, O discerning one?

 

You still never did post the scriptures and facts for this one. You just drill everyone with "spiritual style" and "decency and order", never prove it as it pertains to rock vs. other styles, then the discussion goes around in circles for a while, eventually dies down, you disappear for a long time, return suddenly, and think we forgot.

 

Probably the same place where it says that some musical styles are forbidden.

Now Playing: Reverend Horton Heat – “Spend a Night in the Box”

 

So by this statement you are saying that anything that ALL cannot FULLY particiapte in and is ornamented is unacceptable to God?

What about Christians who are more highly trained and skilled at music than others - should not their gift be more? I mean, does not god expect our best gift? If so, a more skilled musician should "give more." Are you opposed to all solo and chorl performance then in the act of worship? Must all be congregational? I am a strong believer in congregational singin but also sol, choral and instrumental offerings.

Also the original performance was a benefit for an orphanage. So, this being used to support a cause cannot be honoring to God, either?

So please tell me - what sort of a muscial gift is honoring to God and "not showy?"

And about your OPINION that rock is "irredeemable," Are you now saying that God cannot possibly use this style? That, my friend, is placing a limitation on God, which I would definitely be careful about.

Also please give me chapter and verse about what musical styles are not acceptable to God in any way. You can't because there aren't any.

I appreciate your opinion and I'm not trying to change you, but it is just that, an opinion.

 

An addendum to my last post:

Addressing the OP, music can be unspiritual mainly due to content, usage and context - not necessarily style. Style can be if it becomes a stumbling block to a brother or sister.

I'm going to attend and/or perform "Messiah" and celebrate and worship God throughout - ornamentation and all. BTW, I have been to "Messiah" performances that were too ornamented and just got too bogged down for me personally, however teh message wa not lost and God was probably pleased because - His Word will not return void.

 

The last tiem I checked, letting each to be convinced in his own mind was directly scriptural.

No, it's my view that style alone is not an indicator for music being appropriate or inappropriate. Typically, appropriateness of any given selection of music is determined by numerous factors, and each selection should be determined on its own merit.

 

Aaron: (In a criticism of Handel's Messiah.) Too much attention is given to ornamentation, and too few could actually "sing along" with it.

tenor: So by this statement you are saying that anything that ALL cannot FULLY particiapte in and is ornamented is unacceptable to God?

Try to be reasonable in this dicussion, okay? My message is pretty much right on the surface. You don't need to read anything into it.

In all honesty, does this phrase, Too much attention is given to ornamentation, and too few could actually "sing along" with it, sound anything like, "Any ornamentation or degree of sophistication is unacceptable to God,"?

What about Christians who are more highly trained and skilled at music than others -

What about them?

- should not their gift be more?

More what?

I mean, does not god expect our best gift?

You mean like the Little (Pagan) Drummer Boy? Absolutely not. You think our best is good enough? God did not accept any sacrifice that was in any way crippled or blemished. You think He'd accept our natural talents in varying degrees of proficiency?

Music, like food, is for the good of men, not God. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

These are the offerings that God asks for. But in everything in our lives, our moderation should be known to all men. Handel's Messiah, like most Baroque pieces, cannot be called moderate.

And about your OPINION that rock is "irredeemable," Are you now saying that God cannot possibly use this style?

About as much as He can use the S.I. Swimsuit edition to illustrate the Gospel of John.

That, my friend, is placing a limitation on God, which I would definitely be careful about.

Oh, please!

Also please give me chapter and verse about what musical styles are not acceptable to God in any way. You can't because there aren't any.

What you need to understand about music is that it is communcation, and as such is a form of interaction. And there are plenty of exhortations about the manner of a Christian's interaction with himself and others. You would agree that we shouldn't go to the same excess of riot as unbelievers do, wouldn't you? Why would you say the music we indulge is excluded?

Do you honestly believe that a group of head-bangers could peform head-banging music, and that youth can get into a big "spiritual" mosh pit and collide with one another, and that it fits within God's standards of decency and order?

Well, whaddaya know? There really are some basic, straighforward Scriptural injunctions against specific kinds, or styles of music. Imagine that!

 

The problem here again is that you are using extremes to rule out a whole style that goes way beyond that. You need to decide what you mean by "rock", and stick to one definition. Either it's "hard stuff" like that, or it's anything with a backbeat or derived from a certain culture (incl. jazz, soft rock, etc) as you have said before.

 

Aaron,

Please, for this apparently extremely ignorant musician, tell me and give me a good definition of what moderation in music is?

How much ornamentation is too much? Yes Handel and most Baroque is ornate - PERIOD STYLE!!!! Does this make it less sacred and less spiritual? I think not. Do you believe God hates Handel's work? Was Handel possibly inspired by God to write it?

Also, once again, you read things into what I say. I never once mentioned a mosh pit and I do not believe that any style at any place at any time is fully acceptable to God.... It primarily has to do with the attitude of the performer and listener and the context....

As I've said before, I find most of the "harder" Christian rock styles personally offensive and I am not able to worship in that environment. Do I feel the music is not as good, most definitely!

As to our gifts to God, I agree, our best is not good enough. Are you saying that God expects nothing out of the talents He has given us?

If so, why do choirs, soloists and instrumentalists rehearse before presenting music in worship services, whether it be congregational or presentational?

We are expected to give and do the best we are able to do - this is inferred in giving God our "firstfruits."

Your SI Swimsuit compared to the Gospel of John is the most ludicrous exaggeration you have made yet.

I tend to agree with you in some aspects. You carry many things farther that I would.

God gave a plethora of musical to enjoy and to celebrate Him through. Who are we to limit those to our own biases? Myself included.

 

No, I use extremes to show that almost everyone draws a line somewhere, and bases that line on some Scriptural principle. Therefore, the assertion that the Scriptures are silent concerning musical styles is a self-opposing assertion. No one really believes that an appropriate style is whatever the individual likes, no matter how often he says it.

So, as I've said countless times before, we all agree there's a line to be drawn somewhere, the disagreement is where to draw it.