Can God change his mind?

I think it is important to know what kind of statement it is - you've said it was a decree. If He made an unconditional decree, then He either lied or was mistaken, since that decree didn't ultimately happen. If He made a conditional decree, then you have to admit that the decree had an implicit exception of mercy, something you have already stated cannot be the case (since it would be "reading into the text"). So it comes down to either God lied or was mistaken.

 

This isn't a C/A issue at all. Marcia is no 5-pointer, yet her and I agree. In fact, even the most rank Pelagian could potentially agree with a Hyper-C on this issue. Don't let your hatred of another's sotierology distract the debate.

 

First, that is why I added the "and such" (meaning such things as no "free will"...God ordaining or decreeing all things that come to pass etc)

Second, I don't hate it, just disagree with it.

Third, don't let your hatred for my soteriology distract you from the point of my posts.

 

Your post trying to turn this to a C/A debate was pointless. It was just another one of your baiting attempts to turn the topic to your favorite whipping boy, the Calvinist. And don't you find it ironic that one of the most vocal proponents (Marcia) of the so-called "calvinist" position on this thread's issue isn't even a Calvinist?

I don't hate your sotierology - have I started thread after thread on this board with strawman and baiting tactics? Have I setup an entire blog site with the same? No...but you have.

 

You're right, I should spend more time memorizing meaningless sports trivia facts and watching countless hours of people trying to carry, kick, shoot or hit a ball. Soteriology, the study of our eternal salvation, is such a waste of my time. :wavey:

 

I'm not saying what you're doing is a waste of time per se (it's hard to tell what we all do outside this board), but I was just pointing out that you have a lot more invested in defeating the boogey man Calvinist than I do against non-Cals (and the strawman and baiting manner in which you do it also comes across as very uncharitable). I happen to think there are much worse boogey man out there than either C's or A's.

 

He would have violated Genesis 49:10 which stated that Shiloh (the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the seed) would come out of Judah. Moses was not a descendant of Judah, but of Levi.

 

It's not about which is more impressive, it's about what lines up with scripture. Acts 15:18 is clear, God knew all His works before the world began. God isn't waiting around to see what will happen to see what He will do in reaction. God has declared the end from the beginning.

 

This is such a cop-out. Since we are finite beings you say we can't understand anything about God, which is bogus. We can't totally comprehend God, but why in the world would God go through so much effort to explain some things about Himself in language we can understand if we can't know anything about Him.

Acts 15:18 - How is that unclear? Do I need an infinite mind to understand it?
Isaiah 46:10 - Can we not understand the implications of this text?
Revelation 1:8 - Is that somehow beyond understanding?

 

So God lied when He said he would make a nation of moses? What other conclusion can you come to except that God was just "bluffing?" (a nice way to say LIE)

 

I never said he was waiting around to see what would happen, that is a strawman.

And how does the phrase, "God has declared the end from the beginning," support your view of sovereignty any more so than the one I presented? It doesn't. You just read your view into the scripture.

 

That was conditionary on God destroying Israel.

 

If God has declared the end from the beginning, God must know the end. The end must be fixed in His mind. The end cannot be fixed in His mind if He can change and do something different along the line. For instance, had God destroyed Israel, things would be much different today. God prolonging Hezekiah's life had a huge effect on things. One little change would have huge concequences.

If God can declare the end from the beginning and from the ancient times the things that are not yet done, He must have already fixed what He is going to do, what He is going to permit, what He is going to prevent.

 

Again, are you enjoying debating that strawman you have created? I've never even suggested that we "can't understand anything about God." Please try to answer my actual arguments and not your far fetched interpretations of my arguments. I know what the scripture's authors must feel like now...you interpret my words about as well as you do theirs.

Now that sounds familiar. I wonder who was making that argument earlier?

I think I'm beginning to understand your method of interpretation:

When I say, "You are using "inductive logic" which supports a theory about how God's characteristic of Omniscience presumably affects how he must interact within time with his creation. You, a finite creature, cannot know how God must have acted, thought or interacted. You can only say what the authoritative WORD states, period."

You hear...

"We can't know anything about God."

Interesting. What language do I need to use to help you understand my actual words?

I've listed out your proof texts. Can you show me what specifically I have said that contradicts anything in these verses? Thanks.

We have shown you how your view contradicts the passages we have presented and you simply presume that God is bluffing or giving empty threats. With that kind of hermeneutical liberty, how do you know the verses you are presenting are not just bluffs exaggerating the attributes of God? How do you decide which verses to take a real and which ones to take as empty threats? I take both at face value and admit that there is an element of mystery, thus I equally value all the verses. You hold up one verse as more valid than another. On what basis can you do that?

 

I understand your logic, but its just that. FINITE HUMAN LOGIC.

Personally, I think God is big enough, strong enough, smart enough, intelligent enough, good enough and SOVEREIGN enough to handle ANY "change of consequences." I don't think God had to predetermine/preordain/decree (or whatever word you want to use) every action in order to accomplish his purposes. I think what scripture has revealed, period. I think God has predetermined his purposes and is big enough to bring those purposes about in a ever changing, sinful, rebellious world. I don't think God had to casually predetermine even the sinful things in order to get done what He wanted to get done. He does sovereignly intervene and blind rebellious people in their rebellion so as to accomplish a purpose through them. He does sovereignly intervene to call out a messenger to go where He want him to go. But those events are just that...DIVINE INTERVENTION...something that wouldn't even be needed in a system where every act, motive and determination is "from God" in the first place. (I say that realizing that different Calvinists explain this differently and hold to differing views of how God "decrees" sin.)

Only if you think the phrase, "declaring the end from the beginning" means, "God has ordained all things, even the sinful acts of men." Why couldn't that same phrase simply mean, "God has declared from the beginning that His purposes will be accomplish regardless of what sinful creatures do?"

 

The same charge could be made to your view - either God lied or He was mistaken when he told Moses he would destroy the people (since that's not what actually happened). That's assuming you believe God made an unconditional declaration. Or you could assume He made a conditional warning, Moses interceded and God granted mercy to the people through Moses' intercession.

 

I agree with you Skandelon. Calvinists are always accusing non-Cals of usurping God's sovereignty, but they limit God's power and knowledge.

In Jeremiah 38 it is shown that God knows all possible outcomes.

Jer 38:14 Then Zedekiah the king sent, and took Jeremiah the prophet unto him into the third entry that is in the house of the LORD: and the king said unto Jeremiah, I will ask thee a thing; hide nothing from me.
15 Then Jeremiah said unto Zedekiah, If I declare it unto thee, wilt thou not surely put me to death? and if I give thee counsel, wilt thou not hearken unto me?
16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.
17 Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house:
18 But if thou wilt not go forth to the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand.
19 And Zedekiah the king said unto Jeremiah, I am afraid of the Jews that are fallen to the Chaldeans, lest they deliver me into their hand, and they mock me.
20 But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the LORD, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be well unto thee, and thy soul shall live.
21 But if thou refuse to go forth, this is the word that the LORD hath shewed me:
22 And, behold, all the women that are left in the king of Judah's house shall be brought forth to the king of Babylon's princes, and those women shall say, Thy friends have set thee on, and have prevailed against thee: thy feet are sunk in the mire, and they are turned away back.
23 So they shall bring out all thy wives and thy children to the Chaldeans: and thou shalt not escape out of their hand, but shalt be taken by the hand of the king of Babylon: and thou shalt cause this city to be burned with fire.

Jeremiah was able to tell king Zedekiah what would happen to him if he surrendered to the king of Babylon or if he refused in detail. God in his foreknowledge knows all things that will take place, but this does not mean all things are determined in advance. This is what the scriptures show. Calvinists will deny this ability and foreknowledge of all possibilities that God has. It is shown in the scriptures.

 

RAdam and Andy,

What does the text say?

10 "Now leave Me alone, so that My anger can burn against them and I can destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

There is no "if/then" clause. There is no conditional phrase. He tells him to leave him alone and that he has decided to destroy them. He even has the alternative plan ready to go.

Now, you both may want to dismiss that as "anthropomorphic" language. But if God is okay with the authors of scripture using anthropomorphic terms why wouldn't He be okay with the readers of scripture understanding and describing God using those same terms?

 

If there is no implied exception to the statement, then God was either wrong or lied about destroying them, because that's not what eventually happened.

 

Winman, of course God knows all potential outcomes, but He also knows the eventual outcome, and He knows them all perfectly.