Can mankind understand the gospel message?

Frogman, you are right "Following" is not equal to "believing". However NNE will follow that for which one has no belief! Following can lead to belief, but most often not, because following without belief is skepticism and is most often done by cynics.

If you have no belief in Jesus you certainly will not follow him. If you have a little belief in Jesus you will follow him a little; if you have a lot of belief in Jesus you will follow him a lot!

That is why churches are admonished in Scripture to not place the new convert into positions of great authority or responsibility. New converts have belief unto Salvation, but do not have the perseverance faith which comes only by continuous hearing and believing.

 

Thank you Brother Bill for your clear understanding of my illustration.

 

Absolutely! After the Holy Spirit gives a man new life, he immediately believes. </font>[/QUOTE]This is where it's really at for you isn't it?

When the Apostles went outside of their home areas, did they go to people who had already been preconditioned by the Holy Spirit? Or, did they go to peoples who had not been raised in the religion of God's Chosen people.

The scriptures are pretty clear that there was no preconditioning of the people, and that the first they heard was from the mouthes of the Apostles. When they believed they were ready for the Holy Spirit indwelling. The Holy Spirit being HOLY cannot co-habitate with the unholy unbelieving spirit of man. Man must believe first that there is a God who loves them, and that God sent his Son to die for them, and that it is personal individual belief in Jesus that enables the Holy Spirit to transform the believing human spirit into "Redeemed unto God", or Christ-ian.

 

The Holy Spirit is not restricted in His work by man's condition, as we all are conceived in the same condemned conditon because of sin, unless you are saying that it's the luck of the draw to be born in the right place to have the advantage of being in a place where one has more opportunity to be "conditioned" to hear the gospel. The usual means is for the Holy Spirit to work through the proclamation of the gospel. Obviously, in the case of those who die in the womb or at a young age, He regenerates them before they die without their hearing the gospel as those who live longer do.

And, yes, this is what it's all about as my salvation is 100% dependent upon God and 0% dependent on me. I wouldn't want it any other way. In fact for anyone to be saved, including you Yelsew, it's the only way it can be. You should thank God for that.

 

Bill,Yelsew

The bible teaches with absolute clarity that man, by nature is dead : Romans 5:12.

It tells us that men are bound : 2Tim 2:25

It shows us that men are blind and deaf : Mark 4:11

It shows us that we are uninstructible : 1 Cor 2:14

Naturally sinful , by birth (Psalm 51:5) and by practice (Gen 6:5)

This then is mans natural state.

We know that this is not our physical state, it is referring to our spiritual condition.

Does coming to an intellectual belief change this, NO for even the devils believe.

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? NOT ONE. (Job 14:4)

Only God can change us, "you hath He quickened(made alive) who were dead in tresspasses and sins.

Ye have not chosen me bur I have chosen you (John 15:6)

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.(Acts 13:48)

Election is not on account of our believing, our believing is on account of our being elected.

Your INTELLECTUAL belief is inadequate for salvation, it is not faith.

By grace are ye saved through FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES , it is the gift of God.

The reason I was astonished at your earlier statement is not because of the simple example you used. I am astonished because you are denying the work of the Holy Spirit, denying His role in drawing men to Christ. You are saying that every man with a brain can COME, this is simply not true.

You are treading on very dangerous ground IMO.

Enda

 

Which statement is Scripture?
1) "Faith Cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God!"

2) "Faith Cometh by pre conditioning of the Holy Spirit who brings the Word of God"

 

No. 1.

I am extremely thankful that a person doesn't have to be preconditioned before the Holy Spirit gives him new life so that he can come to Christ Jesus in repentance and faith.

 

Does your choosing option 1) say that you agree that the Holy Spirit comes next after hearing and believing?

 

According to the Bible, the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit enables repentance and belief. Hearing can take place at any point prior to the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

And I am not going to argue with the Bible.

 

I believe the following to be the typical order of progression in an individual's Faith.

1) Hearing
2) Believing
3) feeding on the Milk of the Word.
4) Holy Spirit Conviction of Sin
5) Confession of and Repentance from Sin
6) Growing in Grace and the Admonition of the Lord
7) Producing the Fruits of the Spirit
8) Progressing to the Meat of the Word
9) Producing the Works of the Spirit
10) Repeat 4 through 9 coninuously until Called to be with the Lord or the Return of the Lord whichever comes first.

 

Wouldn't the fruit of the Spirit be produced by...the Spirit?

 

Yelsew,

At what point in this 'typical order' were you born-again of the Spirit?

 

Hey, enda, don't worry about this as this is the same trash-talking that he did when he first came into this forum. He has such a light regard for correct doctrine that he wants to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator.

He also wants we who believe that salvation is of the Lord to, in essence, go sit in the corner, shut up, and suck our thumbs.

We have refused his demand and will continue to do so.

God bless you.

 

The word might (dunamai) :
to be able, or possible, could, may, might, be possible.

Your suggestion of what Paul might have meant is not far from the truth.

What he is saying is : God bound all men over to disobedience so that He might (could, not would) have mercy on them all.

This is confirmed of course in Romans 9:15.

What point were you trying to make here Bill?

God Bless

Enda

 

Thanks Ken, keep up the good work.

God Bless

Enda

 

Thanks for the agreement Yelsew. Reading your post I see you made a better argument for my position than what I did. The end, concerning perserverance is confusing, but I think I understood you correctly to say that God has no servants in this world? Simply because new converts do not have the perserverance faith that 'elders' do, from where does this 'faith' originate? If in the man, then there are no servants of God, because when the costs are counted, especially in nations who love to scapegoat Christians, the man who is more materially inclined will most certainly not perservere, but where men are strong in Grace, they are weak in sin and where Grace is strong men are strong in Christ Jesus, otherwise they find themselves in their own strength, one which cannot withstand the persecutions and hardships of being a Christian 'warrior.'

God Bless.
Bro.Dallas

 

Wouldn't the fruit of the Spirit be produced by...the Spirit? </font>[/QUOTE]Just depend on what your perspective is. The Fruits of the Spirit are those inspired in man by the Holy Spirit.

 

I became fully aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life, the moment I fully submitted myself to God in Jesus' Name. Was that when I first believed? No, it was when I fully believed to the point of placing myself into the arms of My beloved Saviour Jesus. Those are two different events separated by some time and maturity in the Word of God.

When I first believed, I was convinced through the lives of others that I must know more of this one solitary life named Jesus.

I followed the discipleship of my elders and confessed my sins and accepted the promise that my sins were forgiven. But that did not stop me from sinning. So whenever I sinned I felt guilty and was prompted to confess in order to receive forgiveness for this "new" sin. I am told in scripture and believe that it was the Holy Spirit convicting me.

It was not until I had read and heard much more of the scriptures and accepted the evidence of eye witness reports on the life of Jesus that I became fully persuaded that the Word of God is true. And when fully convinced,I submitted my life to God. From that point forward, I am aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit. "I will never leave you nor forsake you" is truth!