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Featured Can You Come to Christ on Your Own

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by DaveXR650, Feb 3, 2023.

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  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Putting aside mental framing and confirmation bias, what about it? What are you reading into that?

    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Putting aside mental framing and confirmation bias, what about it? What are you reading into that?

    Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Putting aside mental framing and confirmation bias, what about it? What are you reading into that?
     
  2. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    It seems like it is saying that there is some aspect of coming unto Christ that is not just a matter of the individuals free choosing. That's a short verse, and it looks like it says that in a fairly direct way. Is that how you read it?
     
  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What does it say?
    To whom does the Father give to come to Christ?
    How is that giving effected?
     
  4. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I think the ability to come is given to some. The KJV seems obscure. The ESV uses "unless it was granted him to come". It does look like there is a choosing by God involved. And don't get me wrong. I believe in universal offers of the gospel. That's why some of the Calvinists hate me. But that looks like what the verse says.
     
  5. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I think you've hit on it. I don't have a special hot line to direct revelation from God. And neither do you. All of us on this board could use a lot more reading and referencing other writings as well as scripture. If nothing else, it makes it easier for another person to tell where you're coming from. Hopefully we all trust Christ for our salvation, but I freely use other writings, which are laced with scripture, to make my points. I have seen nothing from you that would not lead me to believe that you should be doing more of the same. Or, if you do get direct revelations, at least share them. It might be interesting.
     
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What I'm trying to say is that the verses you quoted as Calvinists' proof-texts don't say the things they read into them.
    We must observe verses in context and only conclude what they say, not what they seem to say.

    Everything in the gospel of John about sheep, sheep hearing the voice, the Father's sheep, and those of the Father's being given to Christ, in context, simply fits the OT narrative we are all familiar with and which Christ himself tells the Jews, that is:

    The Jews who already believed the light of the OT scriptures were already believers in the Father, and hence his sheep. It is to those that the Father reveals the Son. The end.
     
    #66 George Antonios, Feb 6, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Advice is free, and this is my thread, so let me say this. What you do is adhere to the T.U.L.I.P. as if it were the the Bible itself. The people who came up with the TULIP also were preachers and I am saying that their preaching is way different than you think. That means you could be wrong in some of your assumptions.

    I am not as sure of Calvinism as you are. I am sure that the very people who came up with the TULIP did not preach the way you guys are advocating it. There is something wrong with the way you guys are "doing" Calvinism. Or there is something wrong with Calvinism.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    George I have heard every type how to get saved on here since I've joined but I'm not going to argue the different points as I have my own and I'm sure others do too, yourself included, I do believe this is the perfect answer and it runs from Genesis to Revelation... WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?... "WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE BUT WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE"... Brother Glen:)
     
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  9. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I understand that but what do you think the verse means. Also, I noticed, I was using Wesley's verse by verse, he interprets John 6:45 as "every man that hears the secret voice of God". So he seems to be going along with selective revelation. Now, in John 6:65 Wesley says that the "unless it is given" means it is given only to those who will receive it on God's terms, which to would not indicate a choosing based on God's sovereignty only. So, what would be your take on it?
     
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    No one said otherwise. That doesn't mean we get to redefine what a "work" is in the scriptures; and free will faith, far from being categorized as a "work" by Paul, is rather set in contra-distinction to work:

     
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  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    In context, the Son is saying that unless you yield to the Father's drawing through the OT scriptures, you cannot know the Son.

    The end.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Only in your imagination. I'm loaded for bear when it comes to scripture (in lieu of other men's opinions).

    FYI, I wasn't using the term 'mugwump' in a derogatory manner toward you, it's actually a position that HankD endeared to me. In his words:

    "This is going to be self centered.
    I have a question at the end?

    I am not a calvinist.
    I am not an arminianist.

    I am a mugwump. Mug on one side of the fence wump on the other - someone else gave me that name - don't remember who.

    I tried being a calvinist every other day then an arminian on the off days.
    Didn't work well for me.

    Personally I cant agree with all of the traditional details of either systematic theology although I was educated in a Bible school of mixed theological points of view.

    Although coming (or driven to Christ) for me was a battle . I have said many times before, I am now an "easy-believer", because believing on Jesus is the easiest thing I know how to do to, in fact its second nature (maybe first nature?) to me.
    "

    As I said, Hank, a self-professed mugwump, was one of my favorites here on the BB. I guess 'Christlike' (with a sense of humor) would describe him pretty well.

    If 'mugwump' suits you Dave, then own it. There's no shame in it. IMO, there'll be plenty of mugwumps in heaven. :)
     
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  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ROFL! Who're you talking about Dave? Are you being derogatory? Lol...
     
  14. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    OK. I can see where one could take it that way. By the way. I watched your video above. I don't think faith can be a work either by it's very definition as I have said so on here before.

    On another note, but on the OP, at around 13:00 on your video you talk about coming to faith and how the Holy Spirit works to bring someone to faith. The WCF chapter 7 point 3 says that God made a covenant with man "requiring faith in Him and giving the Holy Spirit to those ordained unto life his Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to believe".
    Would it be fair to say that you believe that the Holy Spirit is necessary to make the word effective? While still maintaining the idea that such grace could be refused?

    It seems to me that the WCF deliberately comes short of insisting that there is an instantaneous regeneration and then the person believes in response to that. They seemed to say that the Holy Spirit makes you "willing and able" to believe. In your video, in the last 5 minutes or so, you used an illustration of being given a pardon while in a cell. I think that in that illustration, the fact you are aware of your captivity and upset about it is also the work of the Holy Spirit and is a type of awakening that you are literally given.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Be more specific. You're still dancing around the edges. Stand up for the theology you see in scripture. What some dead dude believed won't be what God cares about when we meet Him. It's time you actually speak the theology you find in scripture.

    As for me, I'm confident in scripture and what it says. If saints of old believe the same as I do, it only serves to confirm the observations I see in scripture.

    You seem quite well read in other person's opinions. How about your Bible. What does God's word tell you?
     
  16. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Since your post prior to that was nice I have decided that you get to ride in the canoe instead of being the guy who took the "center shot" from Burt Reynolds. Peace?
     
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  17. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to Calvinism the centerpiece of my theology is that salvation is by faith in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are saved whether they believe it is their own idea, or if the Holy Spirit enlightened them thus giving them the ability and desire to believe, or whether the faith was a direct gift, or whether they think they were justified from all eternity and at a certain point God revealed this information to them and then they believed. I think the second one, that the Holy Spirit enlightened them is the correct answer. I don't know if we are born again before we believe.

    But just think of all the consternation and the way people have treated each other on this board with the name calling and the insults over just that one point. I strongly believe that you guys on here that condemn other people because they have a different view of just the "order" of salvation, or whether grace is resistible are possibly unsaved. You may be like the Pharisees or like the Gnostics who prided themselves on some kind of "higher knowledge". More likely though, you just are insecure, and living in this modern, unstable time we live in, like to sign on to a movement and conform to a group where by affirming the main tenets you get a sense of belonging and security. And we're all the same in that respect.
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Toss out Calvinism as that's irrelevant. What does the Bible say?

    You declare that "salvation is by faith in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are saved."

    Now, what does the Bible say? Does it agree with what you have asserted?

    *Ephesians 2:4-9*
    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    What I notice is that our salvation is by God's grace, which happened even while we were still dead in sins. I notice that faith is a gift given as an effect of God's grace being given.

    What I also notice is your projection as an accusation that somehow my observation of Ephesians 2 may be Pharisaic or Gnostic. What do you think. Is my observation of the text coming from some source outside of the text, like a Pharisee or a Gnostic would do.

    Dave, thanks for sharing your theology. It's the first time you've actually been plain and forthright about what you believe. Clearly, you and I disagree on what Ephesians 2 is saying.
     
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  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Opinions… everyone has them.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Try reading your Bible
     
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