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Featured Can you prove by Scripture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Oct 3, 2021.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I’ve separated out your post so that I may respond to your points.

    I can understand where some may draw the conclusion that Calvinist “disparages the character of God.” However, to the Calvinist thinking, the idea that God isn’t smart enough, insightful of what humans call future, or is hopefully surprised at human decisions that characterizes the extrapolation of other schemes is disparaging the character of God.

    Would you not agree that God is not conformed to human time, nor the human condition of having to hope something happens?

    Would you not agree that God knows everything, is surprised by nothing, and is needing no recalculating plan or a plan “B”?

    Certainly, God desires all to be saved, just as He committed the Son to shed the blood for all sin. However, you and I recognize that the appeal does not impact all the same. God’s appeal through Moses to pharaoh, Joshua’s appeal to the Israelites, the Christ’s appeal to Jerusalem, Peter’s appeal at Pentecost… all resulted in a few out of the many.

    Does humankind have the ability to “follow Jesus?” Yes

    Is it successful? No. “Depart from me I never knew you”.

    One can be the disciple of the Lord, and never know Him.

    Who is the mediator that must wait on humans to activate sin-filled frail faith?


    And all this is correct, however, is human faith sufficient? Nope.

    The Lord and Paul both mention faith capable of moving mountains, yet no human simply by their own fallen faith can even add a single measure of height to themself, how much less could they move dirt or engage the creator?

    As you pointed out, the presentation of Scriptures is a must for the Holy Spirit to work. How that happens is the struggle of human construction and centuries of debate.

    For me, I find no freedom of the will or human faith in the unbeliever, rather does not the Scriptures present the enslavement of the unbeliever in ever increasing depravity and payment of death?
    Sure all humans can choose “good” gifts, but s both good and perfect gifts not from God?

    So, knowing that innate faith and the will is both frailty and corrupt, does not God appoint to the believer a new creation so that nothing of the flesh enters the new heaven and earth?

    Did not Paul state that it does not appear what we shall be, but just as the seed does not represent the plant, our current physical is not representative of what we shall be.

    Certainly. The message is both simple and foolish. Does not God take the foolish to confound the wise?

    From the response stated above you can read part of my thinking concerning freedom of the will. I had withstand a lowered grade in graduate school because I dared write the final paper concerning why dogs return to their vomit.


    This is good, for without the work of the Scriptures any change is as steady as the direction of tomorrow’s wind.
     
    #141 agedman, Oct 13, 2021
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  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it is indeed a sobering thought that a large number of "Christians" have never been changed. They treat salvation as a get out of hell card, very sad.

    As I understand it and have been told, if you are one of the elect then you can't loose your salvation. That to me is just a free ticket to not care about or even try to change. I mean if God has determined it all then why try. Your either in or your out.

    I have spent a number of years 50+ studying the bible and I still don't even know all the questions let alone the answers but I just keep plugging away. I have over the last several years spent a large amount of time looking at Calvinism as it relates to the bible. I find that there are to many problems with it for me to consider it a correct view.
     
    #142 Silverhair, Oct 13, 2021
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Well then I guess you and I are just going to disagree on what the bible says. Since God has made faith the requirement for salvation I think I will side with Him.

    Austin did you actually read the post? What do you think these verses say?

    So if it is not faith that brings about our salvation what is it? The bible says it is because of faith so what are we to conclude?

    Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

    Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Act 26:18 ...receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

    Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith,

    Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace

    Not an arrogant claim just a biblical one.
     
    #143 Silverhair, Oct 13, 2021
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I have over the years gone back and forth with Calvinist friends, some of whom are ministers, I have been on forums and yet I have not see a compelling reason to change my mind. I will stick with the scriptures as plainly written. I do not require someone to tell me what a text really means. Fact is that until about 10 yrs ago I had never even heard of this great C vs A fight. To me all this is just a tempest in a teapot. People should just read the bible and trust what it says.
     
    #144 Silverhair, Oct 13, 2021
  5. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 12:55 AM Pacific.
     
    #145 Squire Robertsson, Oct 13, 2021
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I agree that friendly conversations can be problematic unless both agree with Scriptures being used are the final authority.

    To me some issues on both sides will not be resolved until we cross over, however there are also some doctrinal problems that both sides may have if they contemplate the end of the extrapolation which one must always be careful to sift all things through the Scriptures.

    The extreme of the Arminian side ends with losing salvation by not hanging on to the human faith. They use various Scriptures as proof such as: “They that endure to the end…”

    The extrapolation of the extreme Calvinist ends up with no evangelistic efforts.

    I have wondered if perhaps God does use a blend of both schemes and perhaps one or the other as He chooses to His glory, but I have yet to find cause to disregard the Scriptures, and I can tell you also have the same dedication to the Word.
     
    #146 agedman, Oct 13, 2021
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    First, God has not made faith a requirement for salvation.
    Faith is given that we will be justified. Note that none of your verses say "faith is required for salvation." Here is what Paul tells you is required for salvation. The answer is... grace.

    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
     
    #147 AustinC, Oct 13, 2021
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #148 37818, Oct 14, 2021
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  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Again, none of these verses say that faith is a requirement before God can...save.
    If that were so, then salvation is not by grace. God would be chained from extending saving grace until the human being created enough faith to unchain God and cause God to extend saving grace. (How silly is the thought that God cannot act until a human fulfills a requirement. We do not live under the law.)
    None of your verse citations support your assertion.
    We believe precisely because God has acted first, not because we have acted and caused God to respond.
     
    #149 AustinC, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Wow, ain't that a coincidence. You've never produced a verse that states 'justification is by faith alone'.
     
    #150 kyredneck, Oct 14, 2021
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me but your idea is already defeated in Jn 6:44
    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    No election to Salvation mentioned
    There is no such conditions to this verse As you have placed on it Plainly all who are drawn will be raised up.This is exactly what it clearly says.
    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    Neither in this one.They are both compatible.The only thing that stops one from being saved is rejection of the drawing and plenty do reject it.
    MB
    ..
     
    #151 MB, Oct 14, 2021
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The Bible clearly states All. How is it that Calvinist fail to understand this word ALL. It's simple but you insist on adding your own words to it because of faulty doctrines.
    MB
     
    #152 MB, Oct 14, 2021
  13. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
    #153 Squire Robertsson, Oct 14, 2021
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