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Featured Capitalization in John 1:1

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Jerome, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Van you must have missed:
    "1537 ek (a preposition, written eks before a vowel) – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 1537 /ek ("out of") is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by." 1537 (ek) has a two-layered meaning ("out from and to") which makes it out-come oriented (out of the depths of the source and extending to its impact on the object).

     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What a waste.

    Now he denies an obvious truth, sometimes "ek" is used to show dependence.

    Just read the link, folks.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Van,

    I am not denying that the word can show dependence, but it must also be understood that the dependence has focus and direction.

    A believer “depends” upon God because God is in them (“ 14For the love of Christ controls us...). The “depends” is not a manner of a safety net or rescue, but God imposing upon the believer such as should be accomplished. The believer “depends” upon God’s faithfulness and His goodness to shine out from them with authority and righteous character.

    A believer not only depends, but is responsive to the authority and control of the Christ in them. As such the believer serves as that conduit of service. The believers “work out their salvation” not by purposefully of their own strength, but because Christ flows out of us compelling us by His authority to that which He purposes.

    The dependence is not presented as one depending on another to fulfill a contract, but as one who has the wherewithal in which to accomplish the task because the giver of the task is also the one accomplishing the task. The believer is the tool, not the force behind the tool.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for at least recognizing an appropriate translation possibility for "ek." Needless to say, your redefinition of the meaning of dependence has no support. A person who depends on the Law has not been regenerated!
    An unsaved person can depend on God or on themselves or on an enticing snare of Satan.
     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Please stop the diversion and just address the topic raised in the OP, the significance of capitalizing Word/Logos and God at the end of John 1:1:

    There are four possible options in English (capitalize both, one, the other, or neither)

    1. ...and the Word was God.
    2. ...and the Word was god.
    3. ...and the word was God.
    4. ...and the word was god.

    Obviously, there is no difference when read aloud, but what do you think is intended when each word is capitalized (or not)? Does it matter?

    Specifically:

    A. What do you think of English translations capitalizing God? not capitalizing God?
    B. What do you think of English translations capitalizing the Word/the Logos? not capitalizing the Word/the Logos?
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    When you posted:
    Seems you did open the conversation up to consideration of other then John 1.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) You have not addressed the response, thus you need to stop the diversion, and just address the topic.
    2) My response addressed you rewrite question, either capitalize references to Yahweh, or not, but do not mix and match.
    3) When the translators believe Logos refers to Yahweh, they should follow their practice of capitalizing or not references to Yahweh.

    Here is an interesting NET interpretative choice, found in its preface:
    Nouns have been used for pronouns where the English pronoun would be obscure or ambiguous to a modern reader. This has been indicated in a note.​

    And another snippet from the NET Preface:
    Archaisms have also been avoided (e.g., “letter” was used instead of “epistle” in the NT). This includes the absolute avoidance of “thou” and “thee,” since there were no distinctions in the original Hebrew or Greek between pronouns used to address people and those used to address Deity. On a related note, pronouns which refer to Deity are not capitalized for this same reason.​
     
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    My choice in bold because I believe, the word, to be the spoken thoughts, the heart and intent of God. It was what was spoken through the prophets of old and now spoken through, Son. God sent his thoughts, heart and intent (word) in the flesh, born of woman. And the Son spoke the word of the Father.

    God with us.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note that the NET sometimes replaces a pronoun with the name of its antecedent to avoid ambiguity, but chooses not to capitalize pronouns to clarify that the antecedent is Yahweh.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here are perhaps overly interpretative translations choices where the Greek preposition "ek" has been translated to indicate dependence. Obviously the modern translation teams have chosen to ignore this possible choice, but it does shed a different light on the possible intended message. Food for thought but not necessarily accurate.

    John 8:47 He who depends on God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you do not depend on God.”

    John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who depends on the truth hears My voice.”

    Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who depends on the faithfulness of Jesus.

    Romans 4:14 For if those who depend on the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

    Romans 4:16 Therefore the promise depends on faith, that it might be in accordance with grace so that it is certain to all the descendants, not only to those dependent on the Law, but also to those dependent on faith like Abraham, who is the father of us all.

    1 John 3:19 And by this we know that we are dependent on truth, and thus will assure our hearts before Him.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sorry for the double post but I missed the "edit" window of opportunity.

    Here are perhaps overly interpretative translations choices where the Greek preposition "ek" has been translated to indicate dependence. Obviously the modern translation teams have chosen to ignore this possible choice, but it does shed a different light on the possible intended message. Food for thought but not necessarily accurate.

    John 8:47 He who depends on God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you do not depend on God.”

    John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who depends on the truth hears My voice.”

    Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who depends on the faithfulness of Jesus.

    Romans 4:14 For if those who depend on the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

    Romans 4:16 Therefore the promise depends on faith, that it might be in accordance with grace so that it is certain to all the descendants, not only to those dependent on the Law, but also to those dependent on faith like Abraham, who is the father of us all.

    2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not like the majority, peddling the word of God, but as those who depend with sincerity on God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.

    1 John 3:19 And by this we know that we are dependent on truth, and thus will assure our hearts before Him.
     
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    So far, several posts have broadly, and one has specifically addressed the actual topic of the OP (Capitalization in John 1:1 - the last word in the verse - What do you think of English Bibles that do not capitalize God? What would you think of not capitalizing Word/Logos in the same verse (John 1:1))?

    post #2 Van says: "I think it is a fine idea, and several translations do capitalize when in their opinion, the entity is Yahweh, Father, Son or Spirit. The problem of course is when or if they mistakenly capitalize or fail to capitalize....One thing is for certain, it should be made clear to the reader that the capitalization reflects an interpretation of the text."

    post #3 Agedman says: "If one is going to translate, they need to stick with the grammatical rules of the language in which that translation seeks to render. Therefore, grammar, punctuation, capitalizations ... are to follow those rules and not some Greek translation that does have such rules and therefore such rules can not be determiners."

    post #4 Van responds: "Are there any rules of English grammar that preclude capitalizing references to Yahweh as a sign of reverence and respect? Nope.
    It is a "style choice" and neither side is right or wrong."

    post #13 Van returns to the topic of the OP: "I think it is just fine to capitalize references to Yahweh, Father, Son or Spirit. But it is a style choice with neither side being right or wrong. The fly in the buttermilk is when someone capitalizes references in one place but does not in another."

    post #27 Van returns to the topic of the OP: "either capitalize references to Yahweh, or not, but do not mix and match...When the translators believe Logos refers to Yahweh, they should follow their practice of capitalizing or not references to Yahweh."


    post #28 Percho's answer: "My choice ["...and the word was God."] because I believe, the word, to be the spoken thoughts, the heart and intent of God. It was what was spoken through the prophets of old and now spoken through, Son. God sent his thoughts, heart and intent (word) in the flesh, born of woman. And the Son spoke the word of the Father."
     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    The KJB and nearly all translations capitalize both words: "...the Word was with God."

    Does anyone else wish to weigh in on the significance in capitalizing (or not) Word/Logos and God at the end of John 1:1?

    Some guidance, to stay on topic :

    There are four possible options in English (capitalize both, one, the other, or neither)

    1. ...and the Word was God.
    2. ...and the Word was god.
    3. ...and the word was God.
    4. ...and the word was god.

    Obviously, there is no difference when read aloud, but what do you think is intended when each word is capitalized (or not)? Does it matter?

    Specifically:

    A. What do you think of English translations capitalizing God? not capitalizing God?
    B. What do you think of English translations capitalizing the Word/the Logos? not capitalizing the Word/the Logos?

    Please stay on the topic of capitalization and John 1:1.
     
  14. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    I think it is a good idea, for clarification and perhaps even a level of honor & respect to capitalize words that function as a pronoun for the Father, Son and/or the Holy Spirit. Especially with the word "God". To use "god" instead of "God"---- based upon what we are used to from our currently English translations--- can convey "a god" instead of "the God".

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

    *and the fact that I would get dinged by several professors if I did not captilze a pronoun refer to God probably influences my opinion as well :)
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word Logos is translated by the KJV uncapitalized more than 200 times and is capitalized less than 10 times. So the question arises, were any of the uncapitalized usages a reference to the Second Person of the Trinity and should therefore have been capitalized like the KJV did in John 1:1?

    If we look at one example, 1 John 1:1, we see that the KJV capitalized "Word" in the phrase "Word of life" but other translations (LEB, NET, etc) did not. Which brings us right back to the problem identified in post #2. Is the phrase referring to the Second Person of the Trinity, of the life giving gospel?
     
    #35 Van, Feb 21, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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