Catholic Confusion ,or, Who are the Faithful

CCC 841 is confusing, but thanks for clearing that one up for me. Even though you can not speak for the RCC, i'll trust your judgment.

Here is another confusing statement by a Pope.
"And the pontiff proceeded to grant indulgence of 500 days for each time the cloth Scapular is kissed".

Now if the Scapular is this powerful, then why doesn't Roman Catholics wear it everyday and kiss it often? GraceSaves, honestly are you wearing one now?

If you know how many days will be subtracted from purgatory (500 days), then how is it that you don't know how long you will stay? Very confusing

 

Grace, lets get real about this. You haven't 'explained' anything. You have tried to justify the CC's position on this and you haven't done a good enough job. I am not satisified because your paltry attempts to justify the ungodly position of the CC don't make sense. They simply leave one wanting for a real answer.

See above.

They may have addressed them, but in no way were valid answers offered. Or, if they were valid answers and that was the official church position and that was the thinking that the church had when reaching those decisions, it only goes to further prove that the CC is not what you/they claim it to be. I desire nothing more than valid, straight and honest answers. And if no valid answers can be offered, I would expect you to not try and make something up to try and defend something simply because you have a stake in the outcome of the discussion.

For hundreds of years the official church position was that NNE outside the church could get into heaven. Has this changed to include non-catholics? Yes (by your own words in another thread). Then, this is either adding to confusion or contradicting an earlier declaration or both...which is it?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am (or so the wife tells me).

 

Problem number one. I can tell you that the world is flat and that this history books are full of lies. Or I can tell you that Jesus Christ died for your sins. Neither one matters if the person doesn't have faith. Reading through this whole letter, the person just wants to be spoonfed faith instead of taking charge of it himself. I converted to Catholicism and found answers that my faith gobbled up; I was called to this place by God. And my faith maintains my relationship with Christ and His institution. Faith is essential, and I'm not finding it here.

Here we have again someone feeding the answers and them accepting them blindly. How do we know exactly what this person taught them? Where is this e-pologist? Can I shoot him an email? Surely if they spent this much time with this person, they must be pretty good, right? How about his/her website? Anyone? Anyone?

This makes me REALLY wonder about the validity and sincerity of this letter. There's no mention of Jesus. No protestant/fundamentalist convert to Catholicism would be putting such a deemphasis on Christ, and especially not find the Catholic Church's beautiful dogmas of Christ. If this IS real, this person is confused because she's missing the key of Catholicism: Christ. The surrounding dogmas are all subthemes that extend from the center. They all make one faith, but without Jesus, the rest of the dogmas lose their meaning.

I've had more Catholic-Protestant/Fundamentalist debates than I can count, and they always involve the Bible as well as a CCC. You need a Bible, confused Catholic. The CCC feeds from the Scriptures, and you should be looking up the supporting Scripture verses to see where this doctrine is coming from. No wonder you're confused.

Is there a reason you remained in this parish, then? Surely you can find another Catholic Church around if this one is so bad. However, I find it hard to believe that there were so few faithful people in your Church. My church has a large percentage of students (college town), and for the typical lackadaisical attitude of college kids when it comes to Church, the amount of devout followers of Christ never ceases to amaze me. Devoutness is there; I question how closely you are looking.

The leaders of our RCIA team here, on a personal note, don't see a problem with women ordination of priests. However, that's a personal belief, and they faithfully follow the Church's decisions. People can disagree and still follow the Church's teaching. Also, I think lumping everyone together ("the people") is way overboard. Everyone is most certainly not this way.

No, the criteria is if they continue to follow what is correct despite personal differences. Sometimes don't "feel" like their a sin, but deep down, we know it's wrong, and we abstain from it. It's the same thing.

Are there problems in the Church? Of course. There always will be. That doesn't mean the Church has strayed from the original faith; that's absurd and unsupported. These problems will be remedied through time, as all previous ones have.

Again, I question the validity of this letter. Catholics are free to read and interpret the Bible as often as they like, as long as it is done within the guidelines of the Church. Even then, no one has control of your mind, and you're free to interpret however you see fit. Just realize, as with any Church, if you start believing contrary doctrines with the Church, you're going to find yourself leaving that Church.

Your friend is the confused one. He's not logically making sense here. First the Church is wrong and falling away from the faith BECAUSE OF Vatican II, and now it's only the people's problem for interpretting it wrong. Make up your mind, friend.

You can be sure by reading the documents yourself, and seeing that there is not contradiction. Take your faith into your own hands, and don't let your friends live it out for you.

Try the CCC, which you say you use all the time.

Why are you even questioning this? Vatican II was an official council of the Catholic Church. I don't know why because of one person on an Internet message board you've come to question it so much. How did everything make perfect since before, but one person has so dissuaded you?

How am I to help you? I don't know the books, nor the authors, nor these "divergent opinions." With so little information, there is no way I can help you, because you've given me nothing to work with.

Oh give me a break. This person is making the Catholic Church look like the Bible means nothing, and I'm personally offended by it. This is either a fake letter, or the person became Catholic without ever doing any personal study.

So now sola scriptura all of a sudden sounds Biblical, when you were so ready to dismiss it? And on what basis? There is no basis. The train of thought is not logical. And, again, I have no authors, books, or doctrines, only that you tell me you encounter them. I can't help you if I can't examine the texts.

How convenient, seeing as outside this board, I had not even seen this document. Why? Because it's some preliminary writing that carries no weight. If you want to read it, fine, but don't EVEN pretend like this is something that you're bound to, and that the Church is telling you to not evangelize to your neighbor. It's like you're seeking any and every excuse to point angry fingers at the Church.

Gullibility is detrimental to the health. You're not Catholic; you have your eyes closed and you're grabbing at any hand that will lead you through the dark, regardless of where you might end up. Try grounding your faith instead of free-floating.

So it's important, or it isn't??!? Make up your mind! Do you care or do you not? Do you want help or do you want to drown in your confusion? I think you want the latter.

You get accused of that a lot, huh? The Church doesn't want blind followers; she wants active participants. Get out of your wheelchair and walk!

It's amazing how much this letter appears as if it's written by someone who reads the Baptist Board regularly.

You answered your own question. This letter by the Bishops is not binding, so why are you now saying that you are mandated to follow it? Now I'm the one getting confused!

You're facilitating this confusion. These matters are not that hard. Psalm, feel free to give me this person's email address and I will answer his/her questions on a one-on-one basis, and he/she can make whatever decisions he/she wants to.

So now Catholics don't embrace other Christians as brothers and sisters? There is no cause for such confusion.

 

If the fact that I don't speak "for the Church" displeases you, why don't you take your questions to a priest or a bishop? They'd be happy to answer your questions. I can set you up with Father Jeffery at our parish here, if you wish.

In other words, it's rude to ask questions, and then downplay the answer because I'm not "qualified" to answer it to your liking.

This has NOTHING to do with the topic. If you want to discuss scapulars, indulgenced, etc, please start another thread, and we'll talk about it there.

 

Well your pastor or bishop can't speak for the church as the whole either. But really, I do thank you for your reply.

All I was doing was bringing up some confusing statements in the RCC.

 

The thread is called "Catholic Confusion ,or, Who are the Faithful".

If you are a faithful Catholic I would assume you would wear the brown scapular and kiss it daily. But most Catholics don't do this. Confusing.

 

No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. One, this thread is about the person's letter, and two, you don't have to wear a scapular to be a faithful Catholic. Can you receive an indulgence? Sure. But there are thousands of ways to receive indulgences.

Again, this belongs in another thread.

 

Of course Jesus died for the whole world. But why are Muslims singled out for special treatment over say the Hindus, Sikhs, Bhuddhist, etc. There is a special paragraph just for Muslims. Of cours they can get to heaven, if they accept Christ. Satan worshippers can be saved if they accept Christ. Just what is the purpose of that paragaraph in the Cathecism.</font>[/QUOTE]Buddhism is atheistic - they deny the existence of a God.

Hinduism denies the existence of a creator.

Look at all the world religions; the few monotheistic religions are Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. We share something in common, and so it makes perfectly good sense to let them know that we share something in common. It's common ground that we can use to point to Jesus. This is SO not hard to understand.

 

Yeah, its just another anti-catholic hit and run. I think the letter speaks for itself. I dont really have anything to say about it, and the reason I am not telling where I got it is I want you to look at it objectively.</font>[/QUOTE]The person asks for a Catholic to help him/her with their situation. You are doing contrary to what he/she wishes by withholding information.

If you refuse to show the source, then you posted this letter for false reasons. You want the person to remain confused; how else can we help him/her if this public letter is kept private?

 

Well thank you for at least being honest enough to admit it.

Without knowing the source it really doesn't say anything at all. It just as easily could have come from the mind of someone with no other intention than to slander the Church.

No surprise there. You have a history of starting threads with no other apparent purpose than to take a potshot at the Church or Catholics in general and then not have the spine to defend your actions.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would you believe that an anomamous "quote" would lead anyone to be more subjective?

Whatever your reason, I believe that you are required to cite the source if it is not your own work.

Can I get a judgement call from the moderators?

Ron

 

Is this your source, Psalm?

http://pub46.ezboard.com/fcatholicoutlookfrm1.showMessage?topicID=32.topic

TEnloe (whoever that may be) claims to have "permission from the author of this piece to post it on other boards". Did you bother to get permission?

Pretty poor showing on your part, Psalm. You can't cite your source because you don't have any idea who Ree is.

 

The "truth" of the matter is that you don't know if the letter you copied is true or not.

The source is important. If this letter is actually fabrication of someone wishing to discredit the Church by pretending to be a "confused" Catholic, it is a lie.

You do not know what it is: truth or lie. Sadly, that does not give you pause for a moment. That attitude explains a lot of the falsehoods that are spread among non-Catholics about the Church.

If you accept something slanderous or scandalous about another, without knowing it to be true, and then repeat it, you are bearing false witness.

False witness - witness which is not true.

If you do not know your witness to be true, you are a false witness.

It is not a requirement to know that you are lying to bear false witness.

Look to Scripture, Psalm if this seems unclear to you.

 

Of course Jesus died for the whole world. But why are Muslims singled out for special treatment over say the Hindus, Sikhs, Bhuddhist, etc. There is a special paragraph just for Muslims. Of cours they can get to heaven, if they accept Christ. Satan worshippers can be saved if they accept Christ. Just what is the purpose of that paragaraph in the Cathecism.</font>[/QUOTE]Buddhism is atheistic - they deny the existence of a God.

Hinduism denies the existence of a creator.

Look at all the world religions; the few monotheistic religions are Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. We share something in common, and so it makes perfectly good sense to let them know that we share something in common. It's common ground that we can use to point to Jesus. This is SO not hard to understand.</font>[/QUOTE]Many Hindus will happily accept Jesus as God as long as they get to keep their other 3 million gods.

 

Hinduism believes Jesus is "a" God, Muslims Don't.

Lets look at the CCC again about Muslims

CCC 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Please correct me if I am wrong. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the promise child of Abraham. So the CCC statment "Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham" is wrong.

To a Roman Catholic what is "the faith of Abraham"?

This is again confusing

 

This is a typical tactic of avoiding the issue. "Lets focus on the Character not the substance."

 

This is a typical tactic of avoiding the issue. "Lets focus on the Character not the substance."</font>[/QUOTE]So if the "issue" is from the imagination of some person with an agenda...?

Am I free to create a mythical Baptist who is troubled with all sorts of confusion concerning Baptist beliefs, and then expect you to answer them as though it were real?