Catholics teach that only they go to Heaven

ReformedBaptist · Sep 14, 2007

Matt Black said:

Who is the author? What are his credentials? Which contemporary* primary source documents does he independently draw from? Anyone can put something up on the internet...

*ie: 8th to 10th centuries, when the Bogomils were extant
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For a history of Christians before the reformation I would recommend Peter Felix's work on the history of the Albengenses...or however you spell it. For a lesser weighty history, you can read J.A. Wylie's History of Protestanism in which he makes use of Felix's work. I have copies of both, but not with me. I believe Wylie's work is online.

Eliyahu · Sep 14, 2007

Matt Black said:

Who is the author? What are his credentials? Which contemporary* primary source documents does he independently draw from? Anyone can put something up on the internet...

*ie: 8th to 10th centuries, when the Bogomils were extant
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Primary sources are written in the Notes.

BobRyan · Sep 15, 2007

Eliyahu said:

You misunderstand about Albigenes very much. Bogomils which means Friends of God was the extension of Paulicians, and the Paulicians in Armenia communicated even with Albigenes.
Albigenes refused Purgatory.
You are drunken too much with the wine of the RCC.
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The RCC is the "perp" that murdered and slaughtered the Albigenes so the question is "do you go to the murderer to get a reliable witness about the character of his victim"?

If so - then according to the Orthodox Jews - Christ was not the Messiah - he was a criminal.

Yet that is exactly what many claim to do!

in Christ,

Bob

ByGracethroughFaith · Sep 15, 2007

Eliyahu said:

Some of the excerpts from the forementioned article.

1. They take the word of God, as revealed in the Bible, as their only sufficient rule of faith and practice.
2. They regard faith in Jesus Christ as God manifest in the flesh, and as having suffered and died the shameful death of the cross, and risen again for their justification, and ascended to heaven as their Mediator, as the only sufficient assurance of salvation, and that this faith is always connected with repentance and regeneration.
3. They refuse to be bound by any creed or confession of faith or doctrine which is not clothed in the words of the Scriptures.
4. Their only initiatory rite for membership is the immersion of the believer in water on the profession of his faith. This they do not deem a saving ordinance, but a simple act of obedience to the command of Christ.
5. They entirely repudiate infant baptism, both as unscriptural and injurious to its subjects, inasmuch as baptism is only the profession of the act of faith on the part of the believer himself, and no one is able to promise for an infant that it shall believe at a future time. And they regard this baptism of infants as tending to hypocrisy and the introduction of unconverted persons into the church, and of no significance except where it entitles the infant, as it does in some countries, to state privileges.
6. They regard the Lord's Supper as a memorial, not a mystical, service, to be offered only to baptized believers. They repudiate utterly the mystical ideas of the ordinance entertained by some of the Reformed churches, the consubstantiation theory as held by the Lutheran, and still more decidedly by the Greek Church, and the transubstantiation doctrine of the Romish Church and its allies.
7. They abhor the worship of the Virgin Mary in all its forms, and that of the saints, prayers to the saints, prayers or masses for the dead, the worship of pictures, icons, images, crucifixes, and everything of the sort, monachisin and seclusion, and all attempts to acquire merit by superfluous good works.
8. They believe in the necessity of a pure and holy life—not for the attainment of heaven or of any earthly or heavenly good, but from gratitude to Him who hath redeemed them.
9. They have always held to freedom of conscience and worship. They have never, when they have had the power, persecuted any for holding views which differed from theirs, but have always granted to others what they claimed for themselves—the freedom to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience.
10. They have always been a plain people—plain in dress, plain in their houses of worship, and plain in their speech. Their churches have not been decorated with cross or crucifix, statue or image, lectern, altar, reredos, or lighted candles. No "storied windows dight" have displayed full-length portraits of the Saviour, the apostles, or saints. No chimes of bells ring out for them the announcement of church holy-days. Even in the midst of the most gorgeous displays of church architecture and decoration they have been content with perfect plainness.
11. They have never acknowledged any hierarchy, archbishops, bishops, deans, archdeacons, and priests, nor have any of the monastic orders ever gained even a momentary foothold in their churches. Their pastors, teachers, or elders are chosen from, and licensed and ordained by, the churches, and these possess no exclusive or ecclesiastical authority; and though held greatly in esteem and love for their works' sake, they have no ruling power or right of absolution beyond other members of the church, except what is derived from their intellectual attainments, their study of God's word, and their earnest devotional spirit.

http://home.gci.net/~wltullos/bogomils3.htm

Do they look heretic to you? If so, wash your eyes.
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From here
http://www.carm.org/heresy/albigensis.htm

ALBIGENSES

A heresy during the middle ages that developed in the town Albi in Southern France. This error taught that there were two gods: the good god of light usually referred to as Jesus in the New Testament and the god of darkness and evil usually associated with Satan and the "God of the Old Testament." Anything material was considered evil including the body which was created by Satan.
The soul, created by the good god, was imprisoned in the evil flesh and salvation was possible only through holy living and doing good works. At death, if the person has been spiritual enough, salvation comes to the believer. But, if the person has not been good enough, he is reincarnated as an animal or another human. The Albigenses denied the resurrection of the body since it was considered evil.
The Albigenses taught that Jesus was God but that He only appeared as a man while on earth. It also taught that the Catholic church of the time was corrupted by its power and wealth. Their asceticism and humility compared to the great affluence of the clergy helped to bring many converts to this evangelistic movement.
There were two types of Albigenses: believers and Perfects. Believers were Albigenses who had not taken the initiation rite of being a Perfect. Perfects denounced all material possession. They abstained from meat, milk, cheese, eggs, and sexual relations. To become a Perfect a believer had to go through consolamentum, an initiation rite involving the laying on of hands that was supposed to bring the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Infrequently, suicide was practiced as a way to rid oneself of the evil human body.
In 1208, Peter de Castelnau, an official representative of the Pope, was murdered by an Albigenses. Since they had been growing in number, becoming a threat, and would not convert to Christianity, Pope Innocent III ordered them to be wiped out. The persecution was fierce and the movement was stopped.
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Yep, they have all the qualifications of heretics.

BGTF

BobRyan · Sep 15, 2007

The papacy murdered thousands of Albigenses -

Who is it that claims even one of the Pope's men were "murdered" by Albigenses? The RCC?

Is this where we go to the "perp" and ask about the charcter of his victim?? Again?

ByGracethroughFaith · Sep 15, 2007

ByGracethroughFaith said:

From here
http://www.carm.org/heresy/albigensis.htm

Yep, they have all the qualifications of heretics.
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Also the Donatists
http://www.carm.org/heresy/donatism.htm

The Nestorians
http://www.carm.org/heresy/nestorianism.htm

Some even add the Montanists to the list of heretics, with their overemphasis on spiritual gifts.

BGTF

Agnus_Dei · Sep 15, 2007

Let’s not overshadow the fact that the Albigenses were heretical Bob, with the fact that Rome “murdered” them. We know history; we know they were heretical and that they were a target by the West. Was Rome in the right to exterminate these people…of course not.

We also know that in the OT God commanded whole villages of women and children to be sequentially “murdered” as well by the Hebrews, so it’s in History that stuff like this happened and will happen again one day.

Even Martin Luther’s mantra of Sola Scriptura seemed to only apply to him and his sect, since the Lutherans “murdered” thousands of Anabaptists for essentially practicing what he (Luther) preached which was…Sola Scriptura.
-

Eliyahu · Sep 15, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

Let’s not overshadow the fact that the Albigenses were heretical Bob, with the fact that Rome “murdered” them. We know history; we know they were heretical and that they were a target by the West. Was Rome in the right to exterminate these people…of course not.

We also know that in the OT God commanded whole villages of women and children to be sequentially “murdered” as well by the Hebrews, so it’s in History that stuff like this happened and will happen again one day.

Even Martin Luther’s mantra of Sola Scriptura seemed to only apply to him and his sect, since the Lutherans “murdered” thousands of Anabaptists for essentially practicing what he (Luther) preached which was…Sola Scriptura.
-
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1. Did Jesus tell the disciples to kill the Heretics as OT ?

2. Lutheran may have learned that skill of killing other believers from Church of Rome.

3. Will RCC continue to torture and kill the other Christian believers just because they object to Catholicism? I expect so.

Eliyahu · Sep 15, 2007

ByGracethroughFaith said:

From here
http://www.carm.org/heresy/albigensis.htm

Yep, they have all the qualifications of heretics.

BGTF
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I am quite surprised to see your view on Albigenes.

Albigenes may have had the Dualism, but that was far smaller problem than their killers, RCC. They taught the Salvation, refused the Purgatory, they translated the Bible, they learned from the Cathari and Paulicians, Bogomils.

Read thru my post.

Eliyahu · Sep 15, 2007

ByGracethroughFaith said:

Also the Donatists
http://www.carm.org/heresy/donatism.htm

The Nestorians
http://www.carm.org/heresy/nestorianism.htm

Some even add the Montanists to the list of heretics, with their overemphasis on spiritual gifts.

BGTF
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You are very much miserable in the history. Your reference is absolutely wrong. History depends on the writers very much.

You better read it here
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-000.htm

Eliyahu · Sep 15, 2007

BGTF,

Now I can understand a little more portion of the whole system of your faith, and why you differed from me so much in Eschatology.

Read Albigenes here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-085.htm

Eliyahu · Sep 15, 2007

BGTF,

Do you believe Mary is the Mother of God?

Nestorius refused Theotokos. Was he wrong in that?

ByGracethroughFaith · Sep 15, 2007

Eliyahu said:

I am quite surprised to see your view on Albigenes.

Albigenes may have had the Dualism, but that was far smaller problem than their killers, RCC. They taught the Salvation, refused the Purgatory, they translated the Bible, they learned from the Cathari and Paulicians, Bogomils.

Read thru my post.
Click to expand...

It matters not how one finds their way to hell, it can be done just as easily with few errors as with many.

BGTF

ByGracethroughFaith · Sep 15, 2007

Eliyahu said:

You are very much miserable in the history. Your reference is absolutely wrong. History depends on the writers very much.

You better read it here
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-000.htm
Click to expand...

How about Encyclopedia Britannica, do you believe them?

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9005454/Albigenses

Or maybe this one, do you believe it?
http://www.answers.com/topic/albigenses

If the Albigenses doctrines were of God they would not have died out.

Acts 5:38-39 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God , ye cannot overthrow it;

BGTF

BobRyan · Sep 15, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

Let’s not overshadow the fact that the Albigenses were heretical Bob, with the fact that Rome “murdered” them. We know history; we know they were heretical and that they were a target by the West. Was Rome in the right to exterminate these people…of course not.
Click to expand...

The question is - "what is the source" of what you know about the Character and doctrine of the Albigenses? Do you have their books or do you take the self-confessed murderer's word for it?

If you ONLY take the Jew's word for the Character and doctrine of Christ WHAT would you be saying about Him today?

1. Healed by the power of satan??
2. Blasphemed God?
3. Taught Error?

in Christ,

Bob

ByGracethroughFaith · Sep 15, 2007

Eliyahu said:

BGTF,

Do you believe Mary is the Mother of God?

Nestorius refused Theotokos. Was he wrong in that?
Click to expand...

Nope.

Nope.

There are many people recognize who the evils of the RCC, but recognizing evil is not the criteria for making one right with God. It does no one any good to laugh at the pope going to hell, if they are going there with him.

BGTF

Edit: Here is my position on the church of Rome.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund59.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund58.htm

Agnus_Dei · Sep 16, 2007

ByGracethroughFaith said:

Nope.

Nope.

There are many people recognize who the evils of the RCC, but recognizing evil is not the criteria for making one right with God. It does no one any good to laugh at the pope going to hell, if they are going there with him.

BGTF

Edit: Here is my position on the church of Rome.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund59.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund58.htm
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Mary is the Theotokos. The first chapter of John verse 14 proves this: The Word was made flesh.

Mary bore the Word of God made flesh. What Mary bore was NOT a man loosely united to God.

To deny her this title of theotokos seperates the Incarnate Christ into two, breaking the bridge between God and humanity and erecting within Christ's person a middle wall of partition, thus Heresy soon follow...
-

ByGracethroughFaith · Sep 16, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

Mary is the Theotokos. The first chapter of John verse 14 proves this: The Word was made flesh.

Mary bore the Word of God made flesh. What Mary bore was NOT a man loosely united to God.

To deny her this title of theotokos seperates the Incarnate Christ into two, breaking the bridge between God and humanity and erecting within Christ's person a middle wall of partition, thus Heresy soon follow...
-
Click to expand...

I believe you are trying to explain the hypostatic union, which I fully understand.

With regards to Mary being the theotokos there are some questions that need to be asked.

Is Christ eternal?......Yes
Is Christ fully God?....Yes
Is Mary eternal?........No

Therefore not predating God, Mary can't be the mother of God. Mary can only be an instrument which God the Son used to facilitate His incarnation.

BGTF

Eliyahu · Sep 16, 2007

ByGracethroughFaith said:

How about Encyclopedia Britannica, do you believe them?

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9005454/Albigenses
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NOPE !

Or maybe this one, do you believe it?
http://www.answers.com/topic/albigenses
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NOPE !

If the Albigenses doctrines were of God they would not have died out.

Acts 5:38-39 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God , ye cannot overthrow it;

BGTF
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Yes, they have survived in the form of Brethren, Baptists today, Hugenots (awhile).

Read some about them here :

History of the Biblical Churches written by True Believers

[FONT=바탕]http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/ECCLESIA/20028E.html[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]Dr Thomas Cassidy[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0547.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]Way of Life[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]http://www.wayoflife.org/articles/jones24.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]RCC inquisitor[/FONT]’[FONT=바탕]s Inquisitory[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/reinerius.html[/FONT]

JN Darby
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/ECCLESIA/20028E.html

Pilgrim church - Bogomils by EH Broadbent ( English-German Believer, Historian who wrote up to 1930)

Bogomils
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-041.htm

Albigenes

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-085.htm

There are much more articles but basically you should not rely on the history written by the people drunken with wine of the Great Prostitute. the Rome.

ByGracethroughFaith · Sep 16, 2007

Eliyahu said:

NOPE !

NOPE !

Yes, they have survived in the form of Brethren, Baptists today, Hugenots (awhile).

Read some about them here :

History of the Biblical Churches written by True Believers

[FONT=바탕]http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/ECCLESIA/20028E.html[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]Dr Thomas Cassidy[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0547.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]Way of Life[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]http://www.wayoflife.org/articles/jones24.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=바탕]RCC inquisitor[/FONT]’[FONT=바탕]s Inquisitory[/FONT]
[FONT=&#48148]http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/reinerius.html[/FONT]

JN Darby
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/ECCLESIA/20028E.html

Pilgrim church - Bogomils by EH Broadbent ( English-German Believer, Historian who wrote up to 1930)

Bogomils
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-041.htm

Albigenes

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/pc-b-085.htm

There are much more articles but basically you should not rely on the history written by the people drunken with wine of the Great Prostitute. the Rome.
Click to expand...

OK, from your own article then:

But, if we are to believe Mosheim, there were two parties even among these Bulgarian teachers who filled the whole south of Europe, and particularly Lombardy and the south of France, the latter being exterminated by the crusade of de Montfort, for which the Inquisition was invented. The one, or Albenanses, really held the doctrine of two principles, and thus were Manicheans; the other Baioli, of whom came the Albigenses, held nothing of the kind, but that there was one God the Creator, Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, but that Satan, after his fall, had ruined the earth, making the four elements. So they were divided into three parties as to the flesh of Christ, some holding He took flesh of the Virgin Mary, some not; others that He took it really and suffered in it, but did not take it to heaven on His ascension. The sacraments of the Roman body they wholly rejected. They had a certain but unsatisfactory faith in the Trinity.* All this had nothing to do with the Vaudois.
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There are others, I just picked some of the high points. Based on your own information, to claim that the beliefs of the Albigenses was not heretical is incorrect.

BGTF

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