Featured Change of man's MORAL nature in the Fall

Solomon explicitly states that God "made man upright" (Eccles. 12:7) and Genesis 1:26 explicitly says that God made man "LIKE US" and "IN OUR IMAGE." Part of God's image is described in moral terms by Paul in Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10 "in righteousness true holiness." The New birth is a creative act that restores this kind of moral nature to fallen man.

This moral nature of man was transformed beginning "in the day" that man disobeyed God as man "died" in some sense at that point in time. He did not physically die "in the day" he sinned. Hence, that leaves only the possibility of spiritual death or spiritual separation from God.

Spiritual separation from God is separation from the life of God, the love of God, the light of God and the holiness of God and that is precisely the characteristics Paul uses to describe the unregenerate man in Ephesians 4:18-19.

Hence, the MORAL nature of God was changed by the fall due to spiritual separation from God.

Finally, death in this sense which occurred "in the day" he ate had no existence in original creation. Paul says it entered into this world by one man's sin and by this sin death entered this world. This "death" passed upon all mankind.

This "death" which entered into this world "in the day" he sinned was the CAUSE of physical death, the cause of second death. This cause is spiritual death and that is what is "passed" on to all his descendents which in turn is the cause of their physical death and Second death.

This changed moral nature is the sin nature as the very state of spiritual separation is a state of sin.

Therefore, the moral nature of man changed from an "upright" moral nature to a fallen "immoral" nature in the day he sinned. This "immoral nature" IS the STATE OF SIN and that is why death can occur even in the womb not because the baby chose to commit an act of sin in the womb but because the baby has a SIN NATURE in the womb which brings that baby under the condemnation of death, and thus allows death to occur.

 

There is the absurd and unscriptural idea that God is responsible for our sin nature as this position is held by some on this forum which teaches that God is the one that makes men sinners by creating their spirit at conception. Hence, its God's action that is the first cause in making us sinners and so God gets the blame for the sin nature.

Of course, Paul denies that it is any act of God which makes us sinners but explicitly limits the cause of our sin nature to the action of Adam and that "death" (sin nature) is not "created" but "PASSED" down to all mankind through procreation (Gen. 5:2 reproducing his "own image" immoral image).

This theory ignores that death in Genesis 2:13 is by its very character the STATE OF SIN.

This theory says God's action makes us sinners while Paul says it is Adam's action that makes us sinners. This theory says the sin nature is the result of creation in later time at the point of birth while Paul says it is "passed" down rather than by repeated new created acts.

 

First, are you directing this to me or to Van? If to me, then you are mistaken as I don't believe God is returning us to a prefall condition but the new birth is making us fit for a better creation to come. So this is not my assumption nor is it any assumption of my position.

You apparently do not understand what "spiritual alive" means? It means he was in spiritual union with God but that union was mutable, not immutable as in the case of his new birth following his fall.

IT is not based on myth but on the indisputable fact that "death" occurred "in the day" and death cannot occur to something already dead or non-existent. That "death" was not physical death as Adam did not die until 930 years later. Hence, it was spiritual death and spiritual death is spiritual separtion from God. Yet, there can be no spiritual SEPARATION from God if there had not been spiritual UNION with God as you cannot separate what was never united. You need to rethink as your charges have nothing to support them any more than Van's unscriptural idea.

 

Here is one vital crux of the entire issue and that is what is your definition of "die" which occurred "in the day" he sinned? Can something NOT LIVING die? His body did not die until another 930 years. Can something non-existent die?

My definition of "die" in this context is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God and there can be no spiritual SEPARATION if there was no prior spiritual UNION with God.

Since God is the SOURCE of life, light, love and holiness and spiritual separation brings man into a state of death, darkness, enmity and depravity (Eph. 4:18-19) then Adam had to be created in spiritual union with God or no such "death" (separation from life, light, love and holiness) could occur.

Evidence, is that he was created "upright" or in a moral condition "LIKE US" and "IN OUR IMAGE" which is a moral image as declared clearly by Paul in Ephesians 4:24; Col. 3:10.

So, for all you who claim my position is wrong please define the nature of "die" in Genesis 2:17 in the context of "in that day." I await!

 

Let me make something very clear between prefallen and post fallen mankind. Salvation does not restore us to a prefallen condition. In the prefallen condition we were mutably righteous and our spiritual union was mutable. In post-fallen salvation, our new born condition is immutably rightous, and our spiritual union is immutable and our hope is for a BETTER creation to come with a BETTER covenant than the prefallen conditional covenant.

So, if your objection is based upon the false assumption that my position, which I believe is the Biblical position is simply a restoration to a prefallen condition NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

 

Some on this forum simply do not care what evidence is placed before them, especially evidence they cannot respond to, they simply ignore it and keep repeating their false mantra and talking points. This kind of irrationality and stubborness is worthless to deal with and that is why some have been placed on ignore. However, there are some on this forum that cannot be placed on ignore who fit that description.

 

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. - Gen. 2:17

So, what aspact of human nature died "in that day"? He did not say "at some point in the future thou shalt surely die" but "in the day thou eatest".

So, again what aspect of Adam's nature died "in that day"? What is it to "die"? It was not physical death that occurred "in that day." It was not the "second death" that occurred "in that day."

Whatever died in that day ultimately is the cause of physical death, and the second death as both follow. So what is death and what died in that day?

I believe it is the only other possible alternative to physical and second death and that is "spiritual death" and therefore it was his spirit that died in that day and it is his spirit that is born again (Jn. 3:6) or quickened (Eph. 2:1, 5).

Whatever died in that day had to be alive prior to that die as something nonexistent or non living can't die. Whatever aspect that died was previously alive.

His soul did not cease to exist in that day as it was as active after that day as it was before that day. So, death cannot mean cessation of existence when it comes to the immaterial aspect of man's nature.

So what is death with regard to man's spirit? It is separation from the Spirit of God. It is certainly not separation from the spiritual world as those "dead" in this sense are very active with the spiritual world (Eph. 2:2-3; 1 Jn. 4:1; 1 Tim. 4:1b).

What died in that day was his spirit in the sense of spiritual separation from God. That is not possible unless there was spiritual union prior to that day as something non-existent can't die and something cannot be separated from what it never was in union with.

Hence, man was made in spiritual union with God and his spirit suffered spiritual separation in the day he sinned.

This is not myth or speculation, but based on the fact of scripture that death occurred "in that day" he sinned and it could not be his body and it could not be cessation of his soul and the only other possible alternative and NECESSARY inference is spiritual separation.

 

Confession is good for your soul, thank you!

Parrots repeat things but that does not make them true. Van says "we are made sinners at conception" but Paul says by one man's act of disobedience (not God's act) we were made sinners. Van makes God a partner with iniquity as he blames God for creating the human spirit "in" iniquity whereas Paul says "death" (the state of sin) is "PASSED" not something newly created by God at each conception.

The sin nature is passed down in the seed of the man, that is why only males are listed in all Chronologies prior the the New Testament and all end with "and he died." That is why Christ was born of the seed "of a woman" rather than the seed of a man because the sin nature is "passed" down through the seed of the man.

 

I agree! Spiritual death begets the process of physical death, but not vice versa. What "died" in that day was his spirit - meaning spiritual separation from the source of life - God "being alienated from the life of God" is Paul's description of the unregnerate state (Eph. 4:18) which in turn initiated the process of corruption in the physical body which ended in physical death and apart from salvation continues into Second Death after the judgement.

The unregenerate condition of being alienated from the life of God did not begin with any man this side of Adam and did not begin with any sin this side of Adam but with his sin "in the day" he sinned. Death at its root is spiritual separation from God and then is manifested above ground as physical death and the second death.

 

Solomon says Adam was created "upright" and that does not refer to his physical posture but to his moral nature. Scripture says Adam was made "LIKE US" and "IN OUR IMAGE" and that at minimum includes that "upright" moral condition. This is based on clear scripture (Gen. 1:26; Eccles. 12:7). By sin man fell from that upright moral condition into an immoral condition - called death - spiritual separation from God which by nature such separation from God IS sin - thus a STATE OF SIN(Gen. 2:17).

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:... - Gen. 1:26a

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Gen. 2:17

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. - Eccl. 7:29


New Birth not merely restores spiritual union with God, not merely restores the moral image of God but does restores to a SUPERIOR union which is not mutable, and superior moral image which is not mutable in order to populate a SUPERIOR creation to come and this is based on clear explicit Scripture:

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. - Eph. 4:24

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: - Col. 3:10

Furthermore, the unregenerate condition is described by Paul as being in a state "without God" and a STATE OF SIN due to spiritual separation from God and all based on explicit Scripture:

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: - Eph. 2:12

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

After the fall, fallen man was beget after the fallen Adam's image rather than the image of God:

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:...and he died......and he died....and he died.....and he died....and he died.....and he died.

Life was the result of being made in the image of God, Death is the result of being in the image of the fallen Adam because death was "passed" down through the male seed.

My view is not based upon mere myth or assumptions but upon clear explicit scriptures whether or not you agree with my interpretation of those scriptures. I think I can defend my interpretations and demonstrate the truth of my position.

 

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Rom. 5:12

Sin and death "entered the world" by the act of one man - Adam. When God had finished his creation on the sixth day, there was no sin, death and Satan in that world or else he could not say everything was "very good" (Gen. 1:31). Lucifer the unfallen angel existed on that day. Man in the image of God existed on that day.

 

That is purely your own imagination at work because I have already flatly denied that charge and demonstrated what we "put on" is not the pre-fallen condition but a SUPERIOR condition and union. It is superior as it is not mutable like the pre-fallen condition but immutable. It is superior because it results in inability to die and prepares us to living in a superior world to the prefallen world.

So, your charges are baseless drawn from pure imagination. You can invent accusations all day long but it does not make imaginative accusations any more true. I supplied the scriptures.

 

The Word of God traces the moral condition, the spiritual condition, the unregenerate condition of all mankind not to our own person or actions but to the person and act of Adam (Rom. 5:12-19).

Hence, the state of being "alienated from God" and in "darkness" and "being past feeling" and "given over unto....all uncleaness" did not originate with Post-Adamic man but originated with Adam's sin and in Adam's person when he sinned.

These conditions of the unregenerate state of man described by Paul but originate in the person of Adam are descriptive of his SPIRITUAL CONDITION as much as our spiritual condition. These are all descriptives of what it means to be in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God. However, such things are impossible unless first the very reverse was true in the prefallen SPIRITUAL CONDITION of Adam. It requires LIFE for death to occur. It requires LIGHT for darkness to occur. It requires HOLINESS for "uncleaness" to occur. It requires LOVE for enmity ("being past feeling, hardness of heart) to occur. It requires SPIRITUAL UNION for spiritual separation to occur. Hence, a CHANGE OF MORAL NATURE occured at the fall.

Hence, Paul's description of the unregenerate state of ALL MANKIND must first be the unregenerate state of fallen Adam. Here is Pauls description of the unregenerate state:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. - Eph. 4:18-19

This state did not begin with post-Adamic men but with Adam at the point of his fall. These are descriptions of a state of spiritual separation from God as,

1. God is LIGHT - "darkened"
2. God is LIFE - "alienated from the life of God"
3. God is LOVE - "being past feeling"
4. God is HOLY - "given themselves over...to all uncleaness"

These are the direct results of Adam's sin in the person of Adam in the day he sinned. He suffered Spiritual separation from God and you cannot be separated from something you were not in union with.

Moreover, the whole human nature in its undivided state existed and acted in the Person of Adam when Adam sinned and that is what Paul means when he says "for all have sinned" (Rom.5:12) and that is what he is arguing and proving in verses 13-14 showing that no other law could justify death in human beings between Adam and Moses other than violation of Genesis 2:17. Hence, all mankind existed and sinned as one undivided human nature in Adam and therefore death is justified even from conception in the womb for all of mankind. Thus, the fallen human nature of Adam is what is "passed" down from Adam to all mankind which is a STATE OF DEATH or spiritual separtion from God that justifies sin of a baby in the womb of the mother.