Charismatics

According the United Pentecostal Church "Speaking in tongues symbolizes God's complete control of the believer. " So if you are in complete control of your tongue, then, according to the UPC God isn't. " When God tames a person's tongue, that person comes under God's full control. He is in the hands of the Almighty. He has been conquered by Christ, endued with a spiritual force from on high, and empowered for God's service." ( http://www.upci.org )

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]Lorelei,

Again, I'm speaking of the mainstream, here. The UPC is an abberant Christian group, which denies the Trinity and believes that baptism in Jesus' name (as opposed to the Biblical model of "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost") is necessary for salvation so I don't think you can reasonably apply their views across the board or apply them to orthodox charismatic groups.

 

Yes. The Biblical model dictates that there always be an interpreter.

I believe I've already answered that.

Which is why we would check the interpretation in light of scripture.

Evidently.

I don't know.

They did.

 

No I don't. I haven't said or indicated any such thing.

In fact, I think I've been very respectful to you.

I agree but I'm not basing this on my experience, I'm basing it on my extensive knowledge of the charismatic movement.

I agree. I've never said otherwise. Although the brand of the charismatic movement I'm familiar with is extremely charismatic.

Nor do I but, again, these things are part of the Word of Faith and Latter Rain movements, which are abberant movements and are not indicative of the charismatic movement as a whole.

 

Trotter,

What specfic events upset your daughter when she visited her friend's charismatic church?

 

Surprise, Surprise... ScottJ does as well. I would be interested in instances where you can prove that he overstated the case or argued against straw men.

 

I would be interested if anyone can cite an example of tongues being spoken in the Bible. I am not simply looking for a mention of it but an example.

My impression of biblical tongues was that God gave the early church direct revelation so that they would know doctrinal truth and be of one accord in doctrine. Again, this fits the model established by DHK that when the scriptures were complete tongues ceased as the Christianity moved away from being Jewish in membership and identifiable as a sect of Judaism.

If I am not mistaken, the view that tongues had ceased is likewise affirmed by the early church fathers.

The reason for my question is that the modern day movement seems fixated on foretelling future events whether directed at an individual, local church, or the whole world.

 

HERE is a link to a good article concerning tongues.

Kenneth

 

People are so keen to attack the Charasmatic / Pentecostal movement, yet how is it that these groups are getting more people saved that mainstream churches?

In Australia the AOG is number on for first time commitments from the unsaved public, followed by other Charasmatic churches.

This is not to be derogatory but there are many Baptist Churches here that have not had even one commitmnet to the Lord in years.

Tounges is a valid Spiritual Gift, That which is perfect is Jesus Christ, when He comes tounges will pass away.

If you think that the Bible whichever version is the perfect word, go have a look at the Bible versions forum and see if you can find one version that is free from even one translation error, for that is what is required to be "perfect"

 

Actually, I did but I will repeat myself.

We would always compare what was said with scripture.

OK.

Currently? English.

I don't. That's another subject for another time.

 

I said this in the other thread but will repeat it here again since it answers the same statement.

When we are saved we are filled with the Holy Spirit who leads us into all "Truth". That truth is that the Holy Spirit gave us all we needed for life and godliness at the moment we were saved. We do not have to ask for anything more. He doesn't give us useless gifts for self edification, but gave us power to be witnesses and to uplift the body. Salvation should not lead one into a false belief about the Holy Spirit that is indwelling you. If you are asking for what you are supposed to already have, if you are asking for things He has not promised you, if you are experiencing things that are not from Him, are you sure that these people are being saved? What Christ are they believing in? The one that died for them to give them life or the one that died for them to empower them to do signs and wonders? Isn't it an wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after signs? I wouldn't be so quick to embrace a movement that holds so many false beliefs about the Spirit of God.

Are you saying that we do not have the perfect Word of God? Did Christ lie when he said His Word would last forever? What about this passage?

The Bible clarifies that it is perfect and no writer of the Word ever called Christ simply That.

~Lorelei

 

They were useful and necessary before the perfect law of liberty was complete.
~Lorelei

 

I think boorish is a little strong. How about "a little overly enthusiastic"?

I would be, too, if I were concerned about my daughter. Of course your apology is accepted but not neccesary.

What you explained to churchboy is precisly what I was describing as being part of the WoF movement and not the Charimatic as a whole.

What you have to remember is that, just like all baptists are Christians but not all Christians are baptists, all WoF and Latter Rain people are charismatics but not all charismatics are WoF or Latter Rain.

Your daughter is right when she said that it was like brainwashing. This is a key tactic in WoF and Latter Rain churches (as well as most cults, in general). They engage in this, as well as the ultra repetitive worship choruses in order to work their followers into a state of hyper suggestability and, in extreme cases, an altered state of consciousness. They rely on hyper suggestability, group think and hightened expectation to make their followers ...um, follow.

This is why, when you flip past that Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland show at 1:00 in the morning, all of the people in the audience have that glazed look on their face.

In truth, these people use the same tactics that a stage hypnotist uses.

 

Hopefully, your daughter can bring Biblical truth to her friend's life.

 

Lorelai,

Sorry, the perfect Law is not the Perfect word.

Again, a translation of the word can not be "perfect" if it has even 1 translation error.

Only Jesus Christ is Perfect.

 

Lorelei, are you thinking of telios for 'perfect'? If so, this is but one translation of telios

For the record, let me set out my position on the subject, to avoid misunderstanding:-

1. I do not believe in subsequence (as Finney defines it); baptism in the Spirit occurs at conversion

2. I am no cessationist; Scripture does not state that the charismata will cease. I remain distinctly unimpressed by the argument that passages such as I Cor 13 demonstrate cessation; this is at best eisegesis and an argument from silence.

3. I believe the list of charismata in I Cor 12 is illustraive rather than exhaustive and we need to be wary of building a rigid charismatic theology from this chapter. Some Christians, from time to time do have dramatic, tangible experiences of the HS post-conversion, some many times; this is not 'Baptism in the Spirit' as some would say, but a type of charism in itself, akin to Paul exhorting Timothy to "fan into flames" that which was already there in II Tim 1:6. It would seem that this is often given to those who are perhaps weak in their faith (as I was when I experienced it) and need a tangible 'touch' from God more so than those who are more mature and grounded in their walk with Him.

4. I believe that the public 'tongues' in Acts 2 and I Cor 14 etc were- and are - genuine foreign languages. This gift of tongues is not a particular 'sign' of Baptism in the HS as Pentecostals state; it is no more normative to conversion than the "sound of the rushing wind" and the "tongues of fire" in Acts 2. Therefore, whilst I have come across this in a few genuine instances in multi-ethnic congregations, public tongues are used in most charismatic churches erroneously (not by and large in sinister fashion but through ignorance).

5. Similarly, prophecy and some of the other gifts are misused in some quarters, with the emphasis being too much on the 'fore-telling' and not enough on the 'forth-telling'.

Yours in Christ

Matt