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Children in the New Heaven and New Earth

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Steven Yeadon, Mar 20, 2020.

  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I was surprised when reading Isaiah to see children in the new heaven and new earth.

    I had been brought up hearing pseudo-Roman Catholic theology. So, I always assumed the eternal state was super-spiritual and lacked physicality. For years, I have been coming to grips with the idea of resurrected bodies and a new earth to live on. A return to Eden.


    To show my research. I first go to Isaiah 11. Predation by animals has ended, which would seem to indicate the new earth, not the millennial reign. This passage shows that there will be nursing children in the new earth in verse 8, because the language used does not appear figurative. Otherwise, we may assume that the end of predation by animals is figurative language. Verse 6 also mentions children leading animals. This could be argued to be figurative, but when combined with verse 8 it does not appear so.

    Isaiah 11:6-9
    And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
    And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
    And the calf and the young lion [a]and the fatling together;
    And a little boy will lead them.
    7 Also the cow and the bear will graze,
    Their young will lie down together,
    And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
    8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
    And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
    9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
    As the waters cover the sea.


    Isaiah 60 is clearly the eternal state for God is our light, as mentioned in Revelation. The interesting thing is the promise in verse 22. Children appear to be born for we are promised that the least will produce a clan and a mighty nation.

    Isaiah 60:19-22
    “No longer will you have the sun for light by day,
    Nor for brightness will the moon give you light;
    But you will have the Lord for an everlasting light,
    And your God for your [g]glory.
    20 “Your sun will no longer set,
    Nor will your moon wane;
    For you will have the Lord for an everlasting light,
    And the days of your mourning will be over.
    21 “Then all your people will be righteous;
    They will possess the land forever,
    The branch of [h]My planting,
    The work of My hands,
    That I may be glorified.
    22 “The smallest one will become a clan,
    And the least one a mighty nation.
    I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.”


    This passage identifies itself as referring to the new heaven and new earth. In verse 23 we are told we will not labor in vain, since work, but not toil, still exists in eternity as it did for Adam in Eden. Then, we are told we will not bear children for calamity, and this is not figurative looking at the rest of the verse. We are told our offspring and descendants will be blessed as an explanation of no children being born for calamity. Again, we are told predation ends, and this is clearly in the eternal state because this passage speaks of the new heaven and new earth.

    Isaiah 65:17-18; 23-25
    “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former things will not be remembered or come to [n]mind.
    18 “But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
    For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
    And her people for gladness...
    23 ...“They will not labor in vain,
    Or bear children for calamity;
    For they are the offspring of those blessed by the Lord,
    And their descendants with them.
    24 It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the Lord.


    Most interestingly, marriage is not discussed, since of course it ends at the resurrection (Matthew 22:30). That leaves the quandary of where the children are coming from. Theories could be offered, but given the design in Eden, and the return to Eden in the eternal state, it appears something far greater than marriage on earth may await us. Something not marred by sin.

    What are your thoughts?
     
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  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    These are good observations. But do not overlook Isa. 65.20. Not only do you have children, but you have children dying. And sinners.

    Are you certain that this is the eternal state?
     
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  3. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Great observation. I finally notice something, though. Verse 19 of Isaiah 65 states that there will be no weeping or crying. So, how could there be death in this description of the redeemed world? Thinking about it, how would the Hebrews interpret this in that context?

    Is verse 20 possibly using wordplay to indicate the things it mentions will not exist? Also, verse 22 says our lifetime will be as a tree...what would that mean to the Hebrews back then? Rather than being descriptive of actual realities in the new heaven and new earth, such as aging and death. Could it be using veiled points referencing examples of things that won't ultimately be in the eternal state? The death of youths, dying of old age, and being accursed by premature death. The true reality being something that God will not fully reveal until the NT church?

    19I will rejoice in Jerusalem
    and take delight in My people.
    The sounds of weeping and crying
    will no longer be heard in her.
    20No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days,
    or an old man not live out his years.
    For the youth will die at a hundred years,
    and he who fails to reach a hundred
    will be considered accursed.21They will build houses and dwell in them;
    they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
    22No longer will they build houses for others to inhabit,
    nor plant for others to eat.
    For as is the lifetime of a tree,
    so will be the days of My people,
    and My chosen ones will fully enjoy
    the work of their hands.
     
  4. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    I forgot to reply to you directly. I work through your excellent point in post #3.
     
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    To me, Isaiah 11 is a prophecy of the 1,000 years millennium in which Christ rules from David's throne at Jeusalem,
    not the new heavens and the new earth in Revelation 21.

    Isaiah 60 is speaking of both, as far as I can tell.
     
    #5 Dave G, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
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  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I believe that part of the answer is that this is not a description of all of humanity but of the redeemed, the world outside of Christ still existing in this Church Age. The verse you quoted earlier concerning Jerusalem implies this

    25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the Lord.

    The implication that it is not all the holy mountain - Mount Zion, the Heavenly Jerusalem. Without are the dogs, as it says in Revelation.

    And as far as trees are concerned - there are other OT verses that give us a better idea of how they would have understood that. Psalm 1, Isaiah, and Jeremiah, are some areas to study.

    I believe these are all descriptions of the separate reality we have now in Christ.
     
  7. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Why do you argue that? I'm surprised. I believe Ezekiel's temple describes the millennial kingdom, which seems distinct from these prophecies.
     
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Please define "that".
    For now, I'll go ahead on the premise that I understand "that" to be all that I stated in my last post.

    In Isaiah 11, I see events transpiring that can only happen if both saved and unsaved people are present on the earth.
    For example:

    " And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 and the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
    3 and shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked."
    ( Isaiah 11:1-4 ).

    In Isaiah 60, I see this:

    " The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
    15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations."
    ( Isiah 60:14-15 ).

    However, by no means are my observations about Isaiah 60 final.
    I'm still deciding if the words describe the new heavens and the new earth, which I believe that this does:

    " The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
    20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended."
    ( Isaiah 60:19-20 ).

    This passage agrees with what I see in Revelation 21:22-27.
     
    #8 Dave G, Mar 20, 2020
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  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you on this, except I see the temple described in Ezekiel as happening during the 1,000 years and dovetailing with many of these prophecies in Isaiah.
     
    #9 Dave G, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
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  10. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, by "that" I meant your post's contents. I get it. You have good points. I will say that Isaiah 11 could refer to the judgment upon the nations deceived by Satan and the Final Judgment before the new heaven and new earth. Verses 1 to 5 could be prologue to verse 6, on. Followed by endless peace. I want to offer that.

    I guess the thing that gets me is that if you are older and have no children, not by choice, then you know that your hearts desire is to have children of your own. That's why promises like Isaiah 60:22 and Matthew 19:29 matter so much. When children are super special to you, then you take comfort in the promise of a hundredfold and making a mighty nation.
     
  11. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    I consider the temple in Ezekiel to refer to the church. Paul said "You are the temple of the living God"

    Peter said
    • Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5
     
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