1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Chosen in Him

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 18, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,811
    Likes Received:
    246
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, meaning before creation.

    Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.

    Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
    Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
    How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?

    The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.

    Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.

    This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

    This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,902
    Likes Received:
    773
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is not a single verse that supports “corporate” salvation.

    All salvation in every instance in the Scriptures are individuals.

    Even the “chosen” Israel were individuals distinct and distinguishable by culture and physical characteristic (a type of the individual believer).

    God judges individuals, and as the individuals associate in groups, group judgment may be assigned.

    God redeemes individuals, and, as individuals gather (assemble), He works in their midst to empowers individuals with gifts for the benefit of the whole assembled.

    Individuals are condemned already

    Individuals are redeemed.

    Corporate salvation is just not Scripturally sound teaching.

    It is unfortunate that “reformed” churches have distorted there teaching in presenting salvation is found in sacraments, in belonging to the fellowship, in adopting some creed or other statement, ...

    Non-“reformed” stray in this same manner trying as the OP to present a cluster or “means” to a corporate in which individuals are latter redeemed into that grouping.

    Both of these views are hard pressed to find even the slightest phrase of Scripture to support that thinking.

    It just is a distraction that God holds individuals responsible, and salvation is not found in association but in adoption.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,811
    Likes Received:
    246
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did anyone say or suggest "corporate salvation?" Nope
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,902
    Likes Received:
    773
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Really?

    So you didn’t post this?

    “...we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.”

     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,902
    Likes Received:
    773
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When or where does the Scriptures state that Christ was “chosen” to be the redeemer?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,811
    Likes Received:
    246
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  7. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Or, they rely on belief of the words themselves.
    "Chosen in Him" means "Chosen in Him".
    When?
    Before the foundation of the world.

    " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

    I guess you could say that I don't struggle with understanding what's in your quote...I understand it, because I understand it...believers were chosen "in Christ"...they were afore prepared unto glory, and they were spiritually created, placed into the body of Christ.

    How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?

    Because I see that in God's word.

    If you don't, you don't.:(

    Conditional election means that God is a respecter of persons.
    He "respects" or has regard to what the individual does or possesses, in order to then grant that person His favor.

    Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

    "Chosen in Him" must then point directly to God's choice, not man's choice...otherwise, man has grounds to boast in something other than God and His grace and mercy.

    That's not "Calvinism", but grace in the truest and purest sense.



    A question...
    Where does Scripture say that faith actually comes from?
     
    #7 Dave Gilbert, Jan 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,811
    Likes Received:
    246
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Note Corporate Salvation has been claimed twice. Was it a mistake, or was it an effort to construct a straw-man?

    Thanks, Dave for stating an argument against individual conditional election for salvation during our lifetime. Of course, for the argument to have any validity, one would have explain what it means. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. That sounds like God does make choices concerning the attributes and beliefs of individuals.

    Perhaps the answer is God is not a respecter of persons according to the world's value system. He does not respect the well born over the common born, the powerful over powerless, or the rich over the poor.

    Acts 10:34-35 suggests those who value God's will fine favor with Him.
     
    #8 Van, Jan 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God confounds the ways of men by giving grace to those He has humbled.
    That is precisely why men will be confounded...because in man's mind, those who are rich, are powerful, are "elite", should be the ones to inherit eternal life.:)

    I agree, and I see that it involves much, much more.
    He does not respect anything that is in men.
    Not what they have, not what they do...nothing ( Daniel 4:35 ).

    He does not regard man's will at all.
     
    #9 Dave Gilbert, Jan 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    13,811
    Likes Received:
    246
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi Dave, I am unfamiliar with the verse that says "gives grace to those He has humbled. Which translation are you using.

    You say God does not respect anything in man, but since He opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble, your claim seems dubious.

    Your reference to Daniel 4:35 indicates God is all-powerful and cannot be thwarted by the attributes of men. But that is not at issue.

    As far as totally disregarding man's will, John 3:16 presents God as accepting the faith of men.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm not.
    To me, you're looking for a declarative...God humbles, because man, left to himself, is only ever prideful and foolish.
    Please read the Psalms and Proverbs. ;)

    It comes from understanding the word of God, which only comes with much time and study.
    I didn't always believe and understand it the way I do now...it took a long time.

    Again, if you don't see it, you don't see it.
     
  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    385
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Isaiah 42:1 (KJV) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
    Isaiah 42:2-9 (KJV) He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
    A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
    He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
    Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
    I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
    To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
    I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
    Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
     
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'll post the passage that Nebuchadnezzar spoke:

    " and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 )

    This passage states that God views mankind, in reputation, as nothing.
    He does according to His will, both in the armies of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth.
    None can stay His hand.

    It's not simply that God is all powerful, but that the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing...there's more to the passage than His being all-powerful.



    God does not consult men when He decides to do something.
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,902
    Likes Received:
    773
    Faith:
    Baptist

    The basic flaw of "corporate" salvation/redemption thinking is that it requires that the cross never redeemed specific individuals but established the basis for the "corporate" in which the individual will be redeemed.

    The RCC extends this to place their authority upon who is actually remitted of sins, and to what and whom is made sacred / sanctified.

    The reformed stray into the policy that any one who joins is embracing redemption and is therefore redeemed.

    The evangelical restates the idea as you present it in the OP.

    Fact.

    Such is not fundamentally a part of the presentation of redemption in Scriptures.

    Just because you consider that "several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs ... during our lifetime..." is not warrant to accept such as having any validity.

    One must present such verses, demonstrating indeed that individual election occurs "during our lifetime." You have not shown support for your view of "corporate election."

    Especially in light of such passages which show individual election, the time of the election and the fulfillment of such election. For example, Ephesians 1:

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he (The Father) chose us in him (The Father) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him (The Father).

    In love he (The Father) predestined us for adoption to himself (The Father) as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his (The Father's) will,

    to the praise of his (The Father's) glorious grace, with which he (The Father) has blessed us (as sons) in the Beloved (The Lord Jesus Christ).

    In him (The Lord Jesus Christ) we have redemption through his (The Lord Jesus Christ) blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his (The Father's) grace, 8which he (The Father) lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his (The Father) will, according to his (The Father) purpose, which he (The Father) set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him (The Father), things in heaven and things on earth.
    One of the problems with corporate thinking is pretending that the "plan for the fullness of time..." is aligned with "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world." It is NOT.

    For example, John the Baptist was prophesied in Scriptures. He was individually selected prior to his birth, filled with the Holy Spirit prior to his birth, and was in fact born accordingly.

    The corporate plan "for the fullness of time, to unite all things..." was that individuals would be redeemed on purpose, for purpose, elected to that purpose, and appointed to that purpose prior to the foundations being (re) formed. That those individuals, during their lifetime, would become aware by the goodness of God to the claim of God upon their lives and as individuals realize the redemption.

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,902
    Likes Received:
    773
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet, these passages do NOT state that Christ was "chosen" but that upheld.

    Christ is the "I Am." No beginning or ending. "The Alpha and Omega..." He was not chosen, but humbled Himself...

    Btw, do not neglect that Christ was the creator of all that was created and will be created.

    So when Isaiah states, "I will put my Spirit upon Him..." that is (imo) referring to the physical Christ, in which the Spirit overshadowed Mary at conception, and came as a dove at baptism, lead Him into the wilderness, and was commended to The Father at crucifixion.
     
    #15 agedman, Jan 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    385
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mine Elect...Chosen One. Vs. 1
     
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    385
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Peter 2:6 (KJV) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    Christ - Elect - Chosen and Precious
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    385
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew 12:17 (KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

    Matthew 12:17
    Matthew 12:18 (KJV) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,902
    Likes Received:
    773
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'll concede that point, that the Christ was chosen.

    Then one must also agree that that lends support for individual choosing taking place prior to the foundation, for, if Christ (the individual) was chosen prior to the world then it follows that those "in Christ" would also be individually chosen prior to the world.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    385
    Faith:
    Baptist
    By faith are we descendents of Abraham. Even tho we were not IN Abraham. So by faith we are In Christ.

    We are not ALREADY in Abraham...but we are counted as in him through faith. Same with Christ.
    Romans 4:13 (NET) For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...