1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Christ Cannot Be Preached Apart From Doctrine

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Aug 22, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,636
    Likes Received:
    970
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Much is said in regard to preaching Christ, and not doctrine. But how is it possible to preach Christ apart from doctrine? Christ is not an abstraction, but a living, personal Being. If, then, we preach Him, we must preach His Divinity, His humanity, and His mediatorship between God and man. If we preach what He has done, we must declare His humiliation, His death, and the atonement He has therein made for sin. If we preach Him as He is, we must proclaim His enthronement in heaven, His intercession with the Father, and His Headship of the church, with all the laws and ordinances He has instituted for it. And if we preach Him as He shall be, we must affirm the final triumph of His Gospel, His second coming, the resurrection and the judgment, and the glory to which He will raise His people with Himself. It is not possible to preach Christ apart from doctrine; for His incarnation and vicarious death presuppose the Fall and depravity and guilt of men, and the need of regeneration, justification, and sanctification; and His resurrection and glorification equally involve the resurrection and glorification of His church. All the doctrines of Scripture thus center in Christ, and we preach Him only as we preach them."

    - Hezekiah Harvey, The Pastor: His Qualifications and Duties
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    7,959
    Likes Received:
    1,959
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am not disagreeing with you; it is indeed impossible to preach Christ without introducing doctrine of some sort, but I draw your attention to Colossians 1:28, 'Whom we preach,' and 2 Timothy 1:12, 'For I know whom I have believed.' He does not say, "I know what I have believed. I have studied all the doctrines so that I could answer questions on the subject of Jesus Christ on Mastermind." No, no! We look to Christ, to Him bleeding and dying on the cross, and believe that it was for our sake that He suffered, and cast our eternal destiny not on our intellectual knowledge of Christology, but on the Man. Ecce homo; 'Behold the Man!"

    The sermons of Spurgeon are particularly fine specimens of the preaching of Christ and Him crucified.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    36,084
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Several years ago - a pastor in our town wanted to see the 5 or 6 small churches have a co-location. His plan was the Worship Service would include all of the churches - and just have a "Protestant worship service" and then he recommended that the Sunday school hour would be separate classes by denomination and that is where we could teach "doctrine" Our pastor stated that we preach doctrine in our worship service! That "co-located" church never did happen!
     
  4. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,336
    Likes Received:
    49
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There's more to the Bible than just Christ and him crucified...though it is the central and underlying theme. I Cor 2:2, 2 Tim 4:2, I Cor 9:16....And I did take note that you said it was impossible to preach without introducing "some" doctrine. If we as Christians don't know our doctrine, what the Bible teaches on them, then we're not really good for anyone or anything. The doctrines still have Christ as the central them, and they're still teaching him, and him crucified.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    3,132
    Likes Received:
    319
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "I Am The Resurrection" John 11:25

    PREACH IT!

    DOCTRINAL DIVINITY Book I
    OF GOD, HIS WORD, NAMES, NATURE, PERFECTIONS, AND PERSONS

    Chapter 1:Of the Being of God
    Chapter 2: Of the Holy Scriptures
    Chapter 3: Of the Names of God
    Chapter 4: Of the Nature of God
    • Of the Spirituality of God
    • Of the Simplicity of God
    Chapter 5: Of the Attributes of God
    • Of the Immutability of God
    Chapter 6: Of the Infinity of God
    • Of the Omnipresence of God
    • Of the Eternity of God
    Chapter 7: Of the Life of God
    Chapter 8: Of the Omnipotence of God
    Chapter 9: Of the Omniscience of God
    Chapter 10: Of the Wisdom of God
    Chapter 11: Of the Will of God, and it's
    Sovereignty

    Chapter 12: Of the Love of God
    Chapter 13: Of the Grace of God
    Chapter 14: Of the Mercy of God
    Chapter 15: Of the Longsuffering of God
    Chapter 16: Of the Goodness of God
    Chapter 17: Of the Anger of God
    • Of the Wrath of God
    Chapter 18: Of the Hatred of God
    Chapter 19: Of the Joy of God
    Chapter 20: Of the Holiness of God
    Chapter 21: Of the Justice of God
    Chapter 22: Of the Veracity of God
    Chapter 23: Of the Faithfulness of God
    Chapter 24: Of the Sufficiency of God
    • Of the Perfection of God
    Chapter 25: Of the Blessedness of God
    Chapter 26: Of the Unity of God
    Chapter 27: Of a Plurality in the Godhead
    Chapter 28: Of the Personal Relations in Deity
    Chapter 29: Of the Distinct Personality and
    Deity of the Father

    Chapter 30: Of the Distinct Personality and
    Deity of the Son

    Chapter 31: Of the Distinct Personality and
    Deity of the Holy Spirit


    DOCTRINAL DIVINITY Book II
    OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD

    Chapter 1: Of the Internal Acts of God, and of his
    Decrees in general
    Chapter 2: Of the Special Decrees of God, particularly
    of Election

    Chapter 3: Of the Rejection of some Angels and some Men
    Chapter 4: Of the Union of the Elect to God
    Chapter 5: Of Adoption as an Immanent Act
    • Of Justification as an Immanent Act
    Chapter 6: Of the Everlasting Council
    Chapter 7: Of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace
    Chapter 8: Of the Part the Father took in the Covenant
    Chapter 9: Of the Part the Son of God took in the Covenant
    Chapter 10: Of Christ as the Covenant Head of the Elect
    Chapter 11: Of Christ the Surety of the Covenant
    Chapter 12: Of the Love of God
    Chapter 13: Of Christ the Testator of the Covenant
    Chapter 14: Of the Concern the Spirit has in the Covenant
    Chapter 15: Of the Properties of the Covenant
    Chapter 16: Of the Complacency and Delight the Divine
    Persons had in Each Other From Everlasting


    DOCTRINAL DIVINITY Book III
    OF THE EXTERNAL WORKS OF GOD

    Chapter 1: Of Creation in General
    Chapter 2: Of the Creation of Angels
    Chapter 3: Of the Creation of Man
    Chapter 4: Of the Providence of God
    Chapter 5: Of the Confirmation of the Elect Angels, Of the
    Fall of the Non-elect Angels

    Chapter 6: Of the Honour and Happiness of Man in Innocence
    Chapter 7: Of the Law given to Adam, and Covenant with him
    Chapter 8: Of the Sin and Fall of our First Parents
    Chapter 9: Of the Nature, Aggravations, and sad Effects of the
    Sin of Man

    Chapter 10: Of the Imputation of Adam's Sin to all his Posterity
    Chapter 11: Of the Corruption of Human Nature
    Chapter 12: Of Actual Sins and Transgressions
    Chapter 13: Of the Punishment of Sin
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,283
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    *Jonah 3:4-5*

    Jonah began to go into the city, going a day’s journey. And he called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.

    It is astounding how God can use the most terrible witness who speaks minimally, yet God saves people despite it all.

    Yes, doctrine is needed for growth from infancy to maturity, but God used the shortest sermon ever to save the people of Nineveh.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    3,132
    Likes Received:
    319
    Faith:
    Baptist

    I/we don't know what else Jonah may have shared. We do know what little is recorded.

    The Holy Spirit Saved John the Baptist in his mother's womb.

    What did He USE?
    The Word and the Gospel Spoken, we presume.

    and how did He Cause him to Repent and Believe to Be Saved?
    by Giving him Repentance and Belief, which is the New Birth, from above, we presume.

    We"presume" these, why? Because you must be Born Again.
    ...

    We are 'called' to Preach, "Repentance toward God and Faith in Jesus Christ"
    in its simplest form, per the O.P.'s concern, I believe.
    If a person is on an Island, and all they find is John 3:16, will believing that save them?

    Acts 20:21

    “Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
    repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.”



    Mark 1:15

    "Repent and Believe The Gospel"

    from: If a person is on an Island, and all they find is John 3:16, revisited.
     
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    36,084
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And because of what Jonah failed to do, Nineveh was destroyed about 120 years later!
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,283
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. Jonah did the minimum of what God called him to do. God did not tell him to teach the Ninevites the law of God. He only told him to go and declare.
    God did the rest.
    God, by his ordination gave 120 more years. We see in Jeremiah 18:7-11 that God deals with nations in a similar way.

    If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’
     
  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    36,084
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Disagree -
    Salvation is only part of the equation. It is only logical to disciple.

    Did God tell Jonah to leave Nineveh - NO! In Fact, Jonah wanted to die.
    The real question is why did Jonah NOT want to disciple in Nineveh?

    Does a missionary go into a town, share evangelism for a month or so - and then tell folks - well - you are all saved now - good luck. -- No, a good missionary will stay 3-5 years to see that church mature.

    If God did tell, Jonah to leave - then He would have sent someone else.

    Its going to take a lot more to convince me that the Lord did not want Nineveh to be discipled!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,283
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The reason Jonah did not want to disciple the Ninevites or even do more than the bare minimum is the same reason why many will not go to the homosexual community and evangelize or disciple. It's called hatred, bigotry, racism, and prejudice.
    Like Jonah, we don't really want to see those we hate come to faith.
    Jonah is us and we are Jonah.
    Now compare Jesus to Jonah. Jesus motivation is pure love. Jonah's motivation is pure disgust.

    The point of this thread, however, is whether God can save without doctrine or theology. My example, to say yes God can, is Jonah's message. He said so little, yet God graciously took that little and saved a city.
     
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,636
    Likes Received:
    970
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So the people of Nineveh believed God,.... "Or "in God": in the word of the Lord, as the Targum; they believed there was a God, and that he, in whose name Jonah came, was the true God; they believed the word the prophet spake was not the word of man, but, the word of God; faith came by hearing the word, which is the spring of true repentance, and the root of all good works. Kimchi and R. Jeshuah, in Aben Ezra, suppose that the men of the ship, in which Jonah had been, were at Nineveh; and these testified that they had cast him into the sea, and declared the whole affair concerning him; and this served greatly to engage their attention to him, and believe what he said: but this is not certain; and, besides, their faith was the effect of the divine power that went along with the preaching of Jonah, and not owing to the persuasion of men"

    - from John Gill's Bible commentary on Jonah 3:5
     
  13. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    36,084
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To whom are you referring as "We"


    ... go ye into all the world..

    ...whosoever will MAY come....
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,283
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ken, this is a huge supposition. It makes no sense that sailors, who spent their life on the sea, would travel hundreds of miles inland to Nineveh.
    Now, it is apparent that Jonah must have talked to the sailors after he was vomited back out of the fish at some point. Otherwise he could not have recorded how these pagan fishermen came to faith and worshipped God right after Jonah was swallowed up. Jonah must have seen them later in order to hear their story, but there is zero indication they came with him to Nineveh.

    We know Jonah was a popular prophet in Israel because we read in 2 Kings 14 that he prophesied that the Northern Kingdom would expand it's territory and regain lands lost. This made Jonah a positive prophet. Then God took his celebrity and told him to preach destruction of Nineveh to the Ninevites. He wanted no part in that precisely because he knew God would be merciful if the Ninevites repented. He would then have to explain to all Israel why he helped out the Assyrians. Can you imagine the social pressure and change in celebrity status that would evoke? Jonah wanted nothing to do with that change. So, he ran away.
    Jonah indicates no one is with him at Nineveh. He goes 1/3rd of the way in. He gives his one sentence sermon and he walks out, hoping for utter annihilation in 40 days. Thus he waits. He gets furious with God for being merciful and that's the end of the narrative.
    No theology was preached, yet the message God required was preached and over 100,000 people repented.
    The point. God can save, even when no theology is shared.
    Now, is that the norm? No. Is there a need for training in righteousness afterward? Yes.
    Call to repentance, first.
    God moves, second.
    Training in righteousness, third.

    There is no indication that Jonah ever attempted the third part.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,283
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am referring to all humanity, all Christians. Jonah is...us.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,636
    Likes Received:
    970
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As Gill indicated: "but this is not certain".
     
    #17 KenH, Aug 25, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,283
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nothing funny about this comment @Salty. You are far more like Jonah than you might want to admit. So am I. Jonah wrote to show us our prejudice and Jesus lived to show us God's mercy
     
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    38,636
    Likes Received:
    970
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It sounds like you are assuming that the Ninevites were granted saving faith. Maybe they were. However, even reprobates can reform themselves, if even for just a period of time - they can stop getting drunk, stop being sexually promiscuous, stop cursing, stop being gluttonous, etc. - but that does not mean they are saved.

    There is a movement called "Straight Edge", which came out of hardcore punk, that has nothing to do with being a Christian.

    "No drinking, no drugs, no smoking, no casual sex - these are the primary tenets of the straight edge subculture. In general, it's centered around abstinence as a means of rebellion. Most would agree that to be considered straight edge, you must abstain from consuming alcohol and drugs, smoking cigarettes, and engaging in sex outside of caring relationships, but many 'edge' individuals choose to abstain from other substances as well. Some avoid caffeine and medicinal drugs and even more choose to be vegetarian or vegan. Fundamentally, they strive for clean-living and positivity and view alcohol, drugs, and sex as crutches for people to forget their unhappiness."

    - What is Straight Edge? - Definition & Lifestyle - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com
     
  19. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    36,084
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ALL humanity - all Christians are not so!!!
    Are some - sure - are all NO
    Thats why I did what I did - because you were wrong.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...