Christian judgement day - 1 Cor. 3:11-15

It says no such thing!

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The Hebrew term translated "given" means to "give over" to "deliver unto".

Not so! It occurs at the beginning of the Millenniun or the same time the kingdom is given to the saints as in Dan. 7:22

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Hint: Look at the immediate context and it tells you exactly when it happens. You don't care what God's Word says, just what you want to force it to say and that is why you have to jump out of the context to read your errors back into it so it fits your theology:


I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Bob, you have a seared conscience and every post you write proves it over and over again.

 

No, I did not skip it! I explicitly said that portion of scripture leading up to verses 11-15 describes the WORK of the ministry. Some are called to do the WORK of planting churches while others are called to do the WORK of watering or nurturing and pastoring them. This is their WORK they have been called to do. Paul did the WORK of planting the church at Corinth (v. 10) and others did the "work" of building upon that foundation or watering. How each did their "WORK" will be determined in that "day" when the works of Christian ministers as well as the works of all Christians will be revealed whether God approves or disapproves of it for reward or a loss of rewards. That day of Judgement for Christian ministers is the explicit topic just a few verses further in 1 Cor. 4:1-5 which occurs at the coming of Christ. Until that day of judgement comes no one can rightly judge the "work" of the minister or the works of any other Christian:

1 ¶ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Of course pesky context details don't matter to you do they Bob. No, you have only one objective - defend the demons doctrines.

The Christian stands before the judgement seat for a completely different purpose than does the lost unjustified man. He stands there to be judged for reward and loss of reward without regard for the salvation of his soul as that has already been settled at the point of new birth (Jn. 5:23; Rom. 5:1-2; 1 Cor. 2:14-15).

Bob rewrites the Bible to fit his doctrine of demons. Romans 2:16 does not say "all mankind" but rather "of men". But bob does not care what the Bible actually says. He is committted to make the Bible say what his doctrine of demons need it to say. The context has nothing to do with Christians but with lost self-righteous men who think they will be justified according to their own works under the Law of God

Again, bob does not care what the actual context of Daniel 7:9-10 is about. It is about the judgement of the fourth beast, the little horn and their followers and it is the saints who are "given" (not "passed") the position of judging them after all thrones are cast down and the millennial kingdom is to be set up:

THE VISION

9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame."


THE INTEPRETATION OF THE VISION

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

this is the event that takes place at the "Cleansing of the Sanctuary" in heaven mentioned in Dan 8:14 - at then end of the 2300 year timeline starting in the Persian Empire[/QUOTE]

See the other threads where I have thoroughly exposed this doctrine of demons.

 

I have never called the Word of God "doctrine of demons." Whenever I have referred to "doctrine of demons" I have always without exception applied it to YOUR intepretation of God's Word. Bob, another evidence you are under their control due to a seared conscience is that you cannot be even honest about my words much less God's Word. Think about that!

You have no problem distorting the words of those who oppose you any more than opposing God's Word that opposes your "doctrines of devils."

 

It is focused on their "WORKS" not their persons! And "good" versus "bad" works cannot be RESTRICTED to one class of Christians simply because that particular class has been addressed. That would be like arguing that all letters addressed to a specific congregation (Corinth) cannot have any wider application to Christians outside a congregation or worse yet outside the Corinthian congregation.

Absurd rational! Is the judgement of God restricted to the WORKS of church leaders only? Are rewards restricted to works of church leaders only? Is loss of rewards restricted to bad works of church leaders only?

What you do not like is that this text completely refutes your whole soteriological view on "good works" obtaining entrance into heaven and bad works resulting in a lost condition of previously saved persons!!!!

 

Find one single word in the disputed text (vv. 11-15) that mentions any group of Christians in particular??? YOU CANNOT! Why? Because this text no longer has a certain group of Christians in view but it has in view TWO classes of works and the consequence of those WORKS in that day of judgement. Judgement has no other options in regard to WORKS than these two classes - the class that is consumed by fire and the class that is not consumed by fire. It is the NATURE of the works that either stands or does not stand the judgement.

This text explicitly EXCLUDES judgement upon the soul of the person who is responsible for that class of works that does not stand up in the day of judgement.

It is absurd to assume that two classes of works on judgement day are restricted to any particular class of Christians!

That judgement is described immediately aftwards in regard to CHURCH LEADERS in 1 Corinthians 4:1-5!!! Are you going to argue that since it is specifically addressed to CHURCH LEADERS in verse 1-2 that the general principles in verses 3-5 is restricted only to church leaders:

1 ¶ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Does God at that judgement only bring to light things done by church leaders?????

Does God at that judgement only manifest the counsel of the hearts of church leaders?

You must argue for that because the same church leaders are being addressed. This is the conclusion of such an absurd rational.

 

Nice try at diversion from your real problem with my last post! I Corinthians 4:1-5 is your REAL problem as the same CHURCH LEADERS are explicitly identified in regard to the same judgemetn and yet the judgement in view CANNOT BE LIMITED TO CHURCH LEADERS only and neither can the principles that are being supplied in verses 4-5!

My premise is not faulty in the least bit but perfectly just and clear from the overall context. Paul addresses church leaders in verses 5-8 in regard to how they cooperate with one another and work together with God. In verses 9-10 he shifts from the PERSON's of the church leaders to the WORK of the church leaders at Corinth. In verses 11-15 he shifts from the WORK of the church leaders at Corinth to how WORKS will be dealt with in the judgement day of the saints in regard to gain or loss of rewards while making it clear that the PERSON ("soul") is not the object of this judgement. The same judgment is continued in 1 Cor. 4:1-5 where these church leaders are once again explicitly identified as the subjects but the prinicples of judgement at his coming cannot possibly be restricted to church leaders only any more than 3:11-15 can be restricted to church leaders only.

1. You cannot restrict secrets of the heart as the basis of judgement for church leaders only.

2. you cannot restrict bring hidden things to light as the basis of judgment for church leaders only.

It is obvious to any clear thinking person that the principles that God uses to judge between good and bad works that include hidden motives cannot be restricted to any specific class of Christians simply because a specific class is being addressed!

You just as well as argue that only church leaders will have their works judged according to the motive behind them or according to hidden things that determined those works in 1 Cor. 4:1-5 where church leaders are explicitly mentioned if you are going to argue that 1 Cor. 3:11-15 is only applicable to the "works" of church leaders where they are not mentioned explicitly in those verses.

Your premise is foolish and absurd!


Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

Verse 2: An implicit focus on the matter of leadership through the metaphor about the giving of milk;

Verse 4: An explicit statement about following leaders (Appollos and Paul)

Verse 5: Continues the thought - Paul and Appollos each have leadership tasks.

Verse 6 to 8: An extended metaphor about the nature of church leadership - one leader plants, another waters.

Verses 9 to 10: A clear distinction drawn between the leaders and those who are led. This distinction is clearly relevant to Paul's argument. And what is critical is this: Paul sets himself and other church leaders specifically in the role of the builders, setting up the argument of following verses.

Verses 11 to 14: Paul could not be more clear - it is the builders and their works he is talking about here. If you cannot see this, you are in simple denial.

This analysis shows that Paul constructs a careful argument, distinguishing the builders (leaders) from the building (the rest of the church) and then saying something about how the works of those builders will be tested.

You are simply going beyond what Paul is saying, collapsing away the distinction that Paul has carefully drawn between leaders and the church, in order to fit your agenda.

We need to let the text dictate things, and not read things into the text.

I have responses to the rest of your post, but those will be given in a subsequent post.[/QUOTE]

 

This is a pure foolish and unfounded statement! The judgement here is the judgement spoken of in the next few verses concerning the same persons and the time of that judgement is explictly defined:

1 ¶ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Indeed, this is an outright denial by Paul that this judgement should or does take place right now! Bob's argument that 1 Cor. 12-15 is a judgement that occurs now is refuted by Paul in the above text concerning the same persons and their works referred to in 1 Cor. 3:6-10.

I dare Bob to find one word about "doctrine" in 1 Corinthians 3:6-15!!!!! No! Verses 5-9 talk about the PERSONS and their WORKING RELATIONSHIP with each other and with the Spirit of God - NOT ONE WORD ABOUT DOCTRINE!

Verse 9 identifies what was built at Corinth! Verse 10 identifies who was responsible for laying that foundation in this work. The character of the work is obedience to the Great Commission which includes preaching the gospel, baptizing and teaching them how to observe all things! This is the foundation that Paul, as a wise master builder provided. He was obedient to the Great Commission.

The others did the work of watering or nurturing what had already been planted. This refers to their responsibility as overall ministry - example, doctrine, teaching, leading, comforting, exhorting and all that goes into their calling as ministers.

Verses 11-15 speak directly to the character of their WORKS in the day of judgement including all they did and including all their motives (4:6) behind what they did. What is true of their WORKS in their calling is true of every Christian of their works in their calling.

1. The builders are the missionaries and evangelists

2. The foundation is obedience and application of the Great Commission as given by Christ.

3. The wood, hay, stubble represent exactly what the text says it represents - their "WORKS" which is inclusive of everything they did (actions, motives, teaching, example, etc.).

4. The day of judgement is not now but exactly what the context states "until the Lord comes...THEN" (1 Cor. 4:5) as this is the consistent point in time throughout scriptures when rewards are given or denied:

1 Cor. 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.


1 Cor. 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.



Mt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward every man according to his works.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

That admission is the total destruction of your interpetation of 3:12-15 as it is the same "day" of judgement in verse 14 as in 1 Cor. 4:6 which none can deny that is still speaking about the very same subjects (4:1) as in chapter three.

You are a blind man indeed! The "soul" is not even subject to this judgment (v. 15) in perfect keeping with John 5:24 and justification by faith without works as this judgement is about rewards not obtaining heaven! It is a proof text for my position of the soul!

"the day shall declare it" is defined in 1 Cor. 4:5 as "THEN" when Christ comes and not before. The truth is that your "THIS LIFE" theory has not one word of support in the text. But what is that to a man with a "seared conscience"?????

Do you place the day of judgement and rewards "in heaven"? Ok? wherever it suits your confused mind to place the day of judgement then that is when and where this event happens! However, Jesus says that his rewards come when he comes as he brings his rewards with him:

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

Your bizzare and cultic intepretation of Daniel 7 does not change 1 Corinthians 4:1-5. Verses 1-2 identify the same person as in 1 Cor. 3:5-9, and verses 3-4 is talking about the same works as in 1 Cor. 3:12-13 and verse 5 is talking about the very same day of judgment as in 1 Cor. 3:14-15 and it is explicitly restricted, unambigiously spelled out to be when "the Lord comes." Indeed, verse 5 is an apostolic command that no one make such judgements upon ministers until Christ comes to judge.

You can quote Gill and a million other mislead commetators but it still does not change the words of the text one iota!