Christians and homosexual?

Billy,

What does the Bible say?

Joseph Botwinick

 

My Bible says that God's grace is a gift. Once it is given and accepted no one can take it away. God doesn't. And I don't believe the person can destroy it either. I do know that people who are saved by grace do sin grievously and can go for years and years in sin. I also know that this saved person who has gone into a sinful life can repent, ask for forgiveness, and recieve forgiveness. A clean slate.

 

What sin(s) is it impossible for a Christian to commit?

 

This can be readily verified by scripture.

I do know that people who are saved by grace do sin grievously and can go for years and years in sin. I also know that this saved person who has gone into a sinful life can repent, ask for forgiveness, and recieve forgiveness. A clean slate. [/QUOTE]

Where do you find this theology in scripture? Or, are you basing this on your own personal experience? If the latter is true, to say you know for sure when it is merely your opinion based on your experience which might have been different from someone else's. And finally, what does scripture say about homosexuals?

Joseph Botwinick

 

I don't know that there is a sin that a Christian cannot commit. But the only one that is unforgiveable is the one that rejects the Holy Spirit. And that means that there is NO sin sexual or otherwise that is unforgiveable. And that includes the sins of homosexuality, and bisexuality. Otherwise, there would be no prodigal son. There would be no 90 and 9, plus the one that went astray.

 

I know fully well what scripture says about homosexuals. It's been pointed out repeatedly on these pages ad nauseum. What I am trying to get you to understand is what the Bible also says about grace and forgiveness.

That brings me to ask you what the Bible says about grace and forgiveness. You cannot deny that a person who was saved by grace is truly saved and then if he goes into a long period of sinful existence, he (WHAT?) looses his salvation??? Is that what you want me to believe??? I do not. I believe in the security of the believer even though he spent years in a sinful lifestyle. Without that Jbot, there is no security.

Where's the security in that scenario??? Can a man loose his salvation??? I think that you believe he can, but I cannot believe that way.

I know you are a learned man of faith. I have seen your writings here on these boards. I don't know that you have ever been wrong and I am certain I've never seen you backup on any firm statement of belief you have made. But I wonder too if you have ever in your life EVER been a real sinner who has turned himself away to follow his physical need. I see you as living a perfected life that to me is surreal. I also am trying to ascertain how many others agree with your assertions here in this thread.

I regret that I am not as learned as you seem to be, yet I know wherein my Lord has forgiven me for past sins committed. Therefore, I am convinced that he is able to bring me back into the fold from which I strayed. And I also believe that since I fell into that chasm that others have fallen in there as well. And if He will (and has) forgiven me, He will also forgive others also.

 

Billy,

Do you agree with what the Bible says about homosexuals?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Here is my understanding of scripture (KJV).

Lost = servent of sin
Saved = servants of righteousness
There is no sin we should commit and there is no sin mentioned that we cannot commit except Luke 12:10.

Being a Christian doesn’t mean you will never sin again, it also doesn’t mean there are sins you will not be able to commit. There is only one sin that will never be forgiven and that, I believe the Bible is very clear on, is the only sin a Christian cannot commit.
(Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.)

A “truly saved” person is one who has trusted Jesus Christ. (Act 16:30 … Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...) Salvation doesn’t get any simpler than that, does it? Let’s not complicate it!

When a Christian sins


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here are others:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

There is so much more. A Christian can commit any sin, except the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Any and all other sin is forgivable.

I’d write more, ’cept I’m tired now and am nodding away on my keyboard…sigh!

Goodnite!

 

Just so you know, I don't pick one verse of scripture to make my points. Every scripture compliments another and all others.

 

How long is a "long period?" Who decides that and by what standard?

The "practice of sin" is the same as committing the sin already forgiven once saved?

Then we are all liars, aren't we?

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;...

AND

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And, so, since Christians DO lie, that makes them a liar, and we know that ALL liars are going to the lake of fire (Hell). Right?

Where is the hope then? Here is the answer:

2Thes 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Nor liars! Rev 21:8

 

Interim report:
Studying in 1John 3, I am learning from what Joseph Botwinick has suggested.

The question is still not settled in my mind as yet but I am getting there.

Looking at commentaries on 1John I have happened onto something that expresses what I was trying to get across before. It is from the John Calvin Commentary, and it reads:

That "live coal was hid(den) under the ashes" of sin. I was saved. I was being renewed. I sinned a little, but did not renew. I reasoned and rationalized the sin and clung to that which was iniquity and the Holy Spirit who was in me deminished but remained a live coal under the ashes of my sin. It was never extinguished. It one day renewed when I sought God's forgiveness and repented of my sin. And all desire for that sin which had manifested itself in me was miraculously taken away from that instant on. And I did not return to that sin. And once again that coal of the Holy Spirit grew within me and remains until now.

Granted where sin is God cannot exist and that still has me stumped if the above is true. But in me there was a hidden root that sprang up afresh.

Christ did not go dormant.

There are still some places that I have questions about. But then, I continue my search to know what is true....

 

So can a person be a Christian and be a homosexual?

Yes. A person can be a Christian and be a homosexual. A person can also be a Christian and be an alcoholic.

Note that when you refer to a "homosexual" or an "alcoholic", there's no presumption of unrepented sin. I personally know a handful of homosexuals and also alcoholics who are Christians, and attend my church. However, an alcoholic Christian does not drink, and a homosexual Christian does not engage in sexual activity that is biblically banned. Indeed, there are probably more heterosexuals in my church who commit sexual sins than homosexuals.

The bigger question, I suppose, is, can a person sin and be a Christian. For my own sake, I hope so. Next question, can a person sin, and refuse to repent of that sin, and be a Christian? If you use the parable of the prodigal son as a model, then one would have to conclude yes, a person can be a Christian and sin. However, to LIVE as a Christian, one must have a changed heart, as the Prodigal Son did by the end of the story. Who among us has never been a prodigal? If we accept that a Prodigal is a Christian, that DOES NOT, however, mean that we must accept a prodigal lifestyle as appropriate. Two differing things.

 

I believe it is possible :

Revelation 2:20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.]/b]

But not long for this world as Paul indicates in the Epistle to the Corinthians where many had "slept".

If however there is sin and nothing comes of it:

NKJV Hebrews 12:8
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

HankD

 

Christ said we would know them by their fruit.

Then in another place he said to keep his commandments;

By these things, we are known one to another and also known by the lost and by the devil as the children of God.

Really, we cannot go further than to disfellowship someone in open sin; hoping that our actions have been performed through Grace and thereby the Love of God is shown to this person.

Still, we cannot go further and declare them eternally condemned.

To be more liberal than scripture is wrong, but to be more conservative than scripture is equally wrong.

Bro. Dallas

 

My thoughts on this subject are that far too often many believers fail to remember to "hate the sin, love the sinner" and instead exhibit the attitude of "hate the sin, and hate the sinner, too" when the sin in question is homosexuality.

I remember one poster to this board who seemed to be justifying exactly such an attitude toward homosexuals when he stated something to the effect that homosexual behaviour is not just any run-of-the-mill sin; but an "abomination" to God (see Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13). A quick check of my concordance shows that many other sins God also considers to be abominations (see Proverbs 6:16-19 & Proverbs 12:22 for some examples). [All references are KJV.]

I think that a reason that most believers seem especially abhorrant of homosexuality is because it's a sin that only a small minority may have ever committed. It seems to be a lot easier to condemn others for sins that you or I have not committed, but a lot more difficult to harshly condemn others for sins we ourselves have once been (or even may continue to be) guilty of.

My point?: Let's all remember Who we represent, and let's not forget to always show Christ's love, even to those to who it may seem especially difficult at times.