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Christians in Politics pt 2

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by JonC, Mar 3, 2021.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Yeshua1

    The bottom line is that I believe (and have said) that if you believe God has given you the duty to vote, that it is God's will for you to be involved in politics, then you should vote and be involved in politics. I said I believe that God's will is for me to abstain from voting and to abstain from politics.

    I enjoy learning about the reasons people believe as they do. I expect and hope people will strongly voice, back up, and support their positions. I also believe that I can express my beliefs just as strongly even if they oppose yours.

    Why do you believe that I should vote, that I should be involved in politics, even when I believe that for me to do so would be a sin?
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So all of those soldiers who fought say in WW !! to keep us from becoming part of the Hitler Empire were wrong of they were christians?
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I do n ot advocate you to do anyhting that would be against your personal convictions, but you so seem to lump all of us who are against your views as not practicing Christianity correctly!
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not know. The early church would say that they were wrong. They expected soldiers to stop serving if possible when they were saved. But I am a retired soldier, so I did serve in the military.

    Since that is not something that I am facing it would be inappropriate for me to decide if another person should or should not serve in the military.

    I will note that while I served in the military I never assumed a political role (I did not care much about politics for most of my service). I was a Combat Engineer and went out with tankers, but my role was force protection (I was not in an offensive position) so the situation did not come up for me. It could have very easily arisen as I was deployed several times.

    Do you believe that people have a duty to serve in the military?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not know if you are practicing Christianity correctly or not. That is between you and God.

    My view is that political involvement equates to disobedience (I do believe that you, if you are involved in politics, have divided loyalties and would be better off using your voice in the church rather than in politics). So I would classify your position as anti-Christian.

    But so what? You consider those who preach free-will to be preaching false doctrine. You considered me, as a Christian, to be neglecting my "duty" by not voting (even though it would be against my belief).

    Christians do not have to believe other Christians are perfect, or that they hold perfect beliefs. Our beliefs on these issues is not what makes us Christian. But I hope that each of us at least believe that our beliefs are correct, whatever they are at a given time.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    if called upon like in WW 2, yes, and John the Baptist never told soldiers to stop being in the army, nor did Lord Jesus!
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You seem though to be going beyond allowing others to hold differing views, but equate your views as being the correct ones to hold!
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you believe your view is correct?
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is up to the individual, not me. We cannot argue from silence.

    And why WW2. You realize we did not enter WW2 because of the Nazis...correct?
     
  10. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    That is going far too far. As a rule, it is unbiblical.

    “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”—Proverbs 14:34

    God spoke to nations through the prophets of old. God even chose men and women from among his own people for special government service in some foreign nations, not just Israel and Judah. There is no biblical indication that God has ceased his interest in earthly kingdoms, or that his people should no longer have even important functions within those governments.

    The closest we come to finding any such indication involves those who hold special church office, for example, Paul’s note to the evangelist Timothy.

    Furthermore, all indications are that converts would retain their government posts.

    Tax collector—Zaccheus (Luke 19:1-10).

    Centurion—Cornelius (Acts 10).

    Proconsul—Sergius Paulus (Acts 13:6-12).

    Royal treasurer—Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26ff).

    Prison overseer—Philippian jailer (Acts 16:16ff).

    Tax collectors and soldiers—pentitent inquirers of John the Baptist (Luke 3:7-14). ​

    Note that the latter is even in the context of producing good fruit in keeping with repentance.

    There is no biblical support for forbidding Christian involvement in government service to whatever degree is available. That later Christians fell into such a practice does not legitimize it. Infant baptism has more support.

    This is not to say that one cannot imagine exceptions, for example, where the state requires a believer to swear allegiance to it above God.

    “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”—Proverbs 14:34
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Could be going too far. That was the early church, not mainstream Christianity today.

    I do not know of a passage telling people it is OK to be a tax collector, soldier, etc., but I agree many were saved.

    That is why I say it is an individual decision, but one that should also be taken seriously.
     
  12. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    What smoke. You're the one saying one vocation is wrong as you are saying being in politics in wrong.

    Just because one is involved in politics doesn't make them wrong. Therefore a Christian can be involved in politics and not be wrong. Just like a plumber can plumb in the world and not be wrong.

    As I said, and showed, your analogy is amiss. And your position is equally amiss.

    Quantrill
     
  13. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it could be going too far, and in fact is going too far.

    Early church perhaps, but not earliest church. The Bible is our best basis for such matters.

    If it is an individual decision, then how can the church be justified in making that decision instead of the individual?
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are specific vocations that are wrong for Christians.

    You deny it, but it is wrong to be an abortion provider (it is murder). It is wrong to be a phorn photographer. It is wrong to be the owner of an adult book store.

    I never said Christians cannot be in the World. I never said Christians cannot have a voice in political issues.

    I said the voice of the Christian us the Church, not the world.
     
  15. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    That the fiery prophet John the Baptist told the soldiers and tax collectors what to do in keeping with repentance and it included continuing to be soldiers and tax collectors seems to be a rather clear OK.

    And the other examples show no indication that resignation would be expected, certainly not demanded. That is simply an unbiblical notion.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The earliest church as well (perhaps by necessity).

    I do not think the Church can make the decision for an individual. A church can decide who will be in good standing with the congregation, but not with Christ.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. I talked about this a few weeks ago (about John the Baptist). Of course, John was describing repentance and not instructing folks on the Christian life.

    I personally think it is going too far, but it is a legitimate interpretation of Scripture. How can one be a secular judge and not judge those in the secular world? How can one be a soldier and live at peace with all men, loving their enemies as themselves, living quiet lives, etc.?

    I suppose those were the types of questions they were asking.

    To be fair, even though I do not fully hold their views, they did have much better support for their positions than those in opposition have voiced on this thread.
     
  18. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Yes, I know what you said. You said it is wrong for a Christian to be in politics unless it is church politics. The only one 'wrong' here is you. As has been shown.

    You attempted, but not successfully, to equate politics with porn or some other moral wrong. No amount of smoke will cover it up.

    Point being, Christians should be involved in politics.

    Quantrill
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Please define Conservative.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yea, your point. Others believe in the separation of Church and State.
     
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