Circus church.

Why not define "the public worship" from the Bible for us, Dale?

Something John of Japan stated on another thread needs repeating here...

And again I'll say, where in the Bible does it say that the church service is a worship service? That error causes churches to become formal and dead. We do not have "worship services," though worship may take place in our services. We have services to train people to serve and worship God according to Eph. 4, and to fellowship with and encourage one another according to Heb. 10:25.

 

I have to agree with Linda64 on this one. God, in His house, is to be worshiped in a reverent manner. The circuses, Zigfield follies, and other such antics have no place in a house of worship.

Of course, we being Baptists have autonomous congregations. If you dont like the old (or new) style, attend a church that has a worship service where you feel you can worship the Lord.

 

Define a reverent manner for us, and how the things listed in the OP automatically rule out worship.

 

How about a reverent manner is defined as something spiritual and not worldly. There is no absolute pattern in the Bible one way or the other. It is how I feel comfortable worshiping the Lord. I have a problem using carnivals to attract people to the Lord.

The Bible has nothing to say about me running a meth lab in the back of the church, but common sense and understanding what the Lord wants for my life says I don't do it.

As was said in another post, we all belong to autonomous churches. If you don't like the style of the one you are a member of, seek out another that makes you worship the Lord the way you think is right.

 

Being as there are several chapters in Scirpture that address the role of a minister...the idea of a larger church allowing its ministers to specialize in serving, preaching, and ministering to its people--that's unBiblical?

Now you're doing two things: One, you're stretching this "regulative principle" thing past the concept of worship (which, frankly, doesn't surprise me...legalism has a way of creeping into more and more of life).

Two, being as this is the umpteenth time I've seen you question my calling, it seems rather obvious you wish to take issue with it. Sorry, I'm not playing your game.

 

This thread reminds me of the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"
The regular group who constantly preach against legalism seem to be drifting to the dark side :laugh:

Now form a line so I can take your temperature

 

A close walk with the Lord and guidance from the Holy Spirit solves that problem. There is no real right or wrong from a Biblical command stand point about this thread. I have been lead to a church that has a more traitional worship style, and enjoy worshiping the Lord in that manner.

If someone wants to have different music, instruments, etc, that is fine. It is not a debate point, kind of like which version of the Bible is better. From MY point of view, the extreme examples used in the post about the clown and the elephant make me wonder.

 

I went to VBS every night, last year - - as a 58 Yr. old.

And as a 'student', at that! (Also took my great- niece; hope to do it again, and take both my great nieces that live next door. My bride only got to attend twice, due to work schedule.)

BTW, although we did not do it last year with having VBS 'commencement' on Saturday, what would be wrong with the VBS 'commencement' service taking place as a 'special' type of service on a Sunday, any more than a cantata or another special service, like a 'homecoming' service, dedicatory service, or any other type? The VBS is authorized by our church, a Biblical message was and is preached, with singing, etc.? Sure 'sounds' like a worship service to me!

Ed

 

Where is the Biblical definition for what must be a "normal worship service"?

I must have missed it when reading, somehow.

This sort of stuff just sounds to me like some more of the "grace robbery" that is being talked about in another thread. Or in the words of the late Dr. John R. Rice. 'Formalism"! How do we, and why do we want to, impose all sorts of additional non-Biblical demands on the Bible's distinctives?

No wonder, so many see us and decide that "I don't want any part of that type of 'religion'!"

Frankly, I don't blame them!

Ed

 

Could be worse!

You could be a Cubs fan, instead. :BangHead: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

or the pews can be replaced with stationary bikes attached to some sort of contraption that powers the air conditioning.

of course, the seniors, almost seniors, and the physically incapacitated will have to be treated differently.

 

I haven't added anything, that I recall. Nor have I forced anyone to do anything. The doors on the church building where I attend can be opened from either the inside or the outside, at least as of Wednesday night.

In the first place, I am no pastor, elder, or deacon, have suggested no specifics as to worship form or programs, and as the Moderator, would not even normally have that opportunity.

As long as we have the word preached, prayer, sing hymns (Define hymns.), and it is all done "decently and in order", I have no particular problem with it. I certainly have not advocated any "circus" church, that I can recall.

As to your post, what about your church as to "elements of worship" and "programs"?

Des your church have a piano and/or organ and/or any other musical instruments?

Do you have a "PA" system?

Do you have church bulletins?

Do you pass an offering plate in any form?

Do you use any hymnal?

Do you have a "church building"?

That is just a few things regarding "elements of worship", I'd say.

As to "programs" -

Does your church have any sort of "Sunday School"?

How about any "'Discipleship' or Church Training" organization?

Women's groups or ministry?

Men's groups or ministry?

Youth Groups or ministry?

'Children's Church' and/or Nursery?

VBS?

Any other group that is not specifically mandated by Scripture?

If the answer to any of these is "Yes", would that not be a double standard at best, according to what you have posted?

BTW, where in Scripture is the mandate for worship even to be on Sunday, much less Sunday morning? Is there someting intrinsically wrong with Tuesday, Friday, or Saturday, even though we, at our church, do meet on Sunday? (I happen to know a couple of churches here locally, that do not assemble on Sunday morning, but at another time.) I missed that one as well, I guess.

Ed

 

You know, Ed, this is worthy of a thread all its own.

The standard answer, of course, is that Sunday is the first day of the week, and the Lord's Day is indicated as being the first day of the week.

But even that is debatable.

Sunday is the first day of the week, according to Gentile laws, or at least, our laws, just as Saturday is the last day of the week, according to our laws.

But, the Bible being written by Jews from a Jewish perspective, how do we know the first day they were writing of is not their first day.

In fact, how do we determine which is the first day at all ?

 

I don't know if you can prove with scripture, and I am not against activities, or thinking outside the box. However this verse comes to mind.

We must always keep it in mind that we are responsible to spread the good news, and allow the Holy Spirit to work. In this verse Jesus said that He would build the Church ("I will"). Sometimes I think we can get to caught up in the numbers game. If we look at only how we can get large crowds, we may run the risk of then seeing less of a focus on genuine worship, prayer, or the serving attitude. We risk being so busy in a corporate way running the programs it can become a sort of business. Are we having meetings and committees, that are run as a corporation would run them, or are we moving forward, after much prayer, study (and maybe fasting) over the decisions? Are we being led by the Holy Spirit or the mind of men? Are we being faithful to worship, serving and witnessing, and allowing Him to build it? Or are we maybe at times looking at numbers for other reasons, such as for financial reasons, or pride? I will repeat, I am not against being willing to think outside the box, but let us make certain, it is His will, make certain, it is for the right reasons done in the right way, and not for the wrong ones, in the wrong way.

 

Really Dale? No VBS, Sunday School or Missions programs? No Discipleship training (sadly lacking in my own church)?

You simply go to church twice on Sunday for Praise and Preaching and Wednesday night for Prayer and that's it?

No outreach?

Is this because you belong to a small church or are there other reasons?

Hmmm...The homeschool association I belong to requires that at least one parent to be an active member of a local church. I meet that requirement because I work with the children(various positions at different times), am a member of the choir and I'm on a church committee. Just coming and filling the pew doesn't fill the requirement. I'd have a hard time with that if I belonged to your church. It's a service oriented requirement.

 

Sorry...this "circumstance" vs. "elements" still contain tons of gray area that will snag folks.

For instance: Offerings. How do you collect them? Giving is a part of worship...so if we follow this "regulative principle" stuff...there's a good chance we'll "do it wrong."

Best I can tell, the "regulative principle" exists so that the Church of Christ will have something to critcize Baptists about.