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Featured Clear up confusion about tongues!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by awaken, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    THe first mention of tongues before Acts is in Mark 16:17

    "And these signs will follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues"

    We first have to believe the gospel (good news) preached to every creature.
    If we do not believe it is part of the signs following those that believe will we ever experience it?

    I was taught for years that tongues had ceased. So I was taught against it..how could I believe something that I was taught against? Even though this scriptures says we will speak with new tongues.
     
    #21 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Why so secretive about revealing what your utterances sound like?
    You want to clear up confusion, right?

    Just jot down, phonetically, to the best of your ability, what you say.
    A sentence or two, that's all, so we can understand.
     
    #22 Jerome, Nov 12, 2012
  3. Bob Hope

    Bob Hope Member

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    No scripture, just observation. There seems to be a time coming when that will change.



    Acts 2:16-18



    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
     
    #23 Bob Hope, Nov 12, 2012
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Praying in tongues is mentioned in this context as well. So are you saying when a person steps outside the church door his praying in tongues changes to something else?


    If speaking in tongues is the sign of baptism in the Spirit and if baptism in the Spirit is regarded essential for "spirituality" or spiritual growth, then Paul could not say that speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 12:29-30) is not given for all Christians because spirituality is something for all Christians. The gift of tongues in 1 Cor. 12:29 cannot be reclassifed as some other gift than the normal use of the term. Tongues does not change depending on your geographical location or between inside the church building versus outside of it.

    The only other alternative for anything done "in the Spirit" is to do it "in the flesh" as there are no other options for the vehicle or mode of expression. You are not dealing with the text in its context or following Paul's argument.

    12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

    Verse 12 concludes his argument that in the church all things, all gifts must be used for edification or they are worthless. It is in regard to this conclusion that verse 13 and its topic about praying in tongues pursues:

    13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

    Obvious the speaker in tongues isn't himself being edified by what he is saying since he does not understand what he is saying but must ask God for understanding (interpretation). Tongues edify NO ONE if neither the speaker or the hearers understand what is being said.

    Based upon the principle that gifts are designed for edification not merely in the church but whenever and whoever exerciseth them as the way of love "SEEKETH NOT HER OWN" and it is the way of Love that all gifts are to be exercised in 1 Cor. 14:1-2. No tongues unless they can edify someone. An interpretation accompanies it so that both speaker and heaers are edified. Verses 14-17 provides a PERSONAL illustration of what he means by exercising gifts for edification regardless where one may use his gift.


    14 FOR if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    This is not merely true in the church but anywhere one may exericse this gift. Regardless where he speaks the speakers mind is unfruitful, unedified, meaning it does not build him up or anyone else.

    15 ΒΆ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    What is it then? It is worthless to him or anyone else. So what will Paul do if he speaks in tongues and he does not speak in tongues inside the church (v. 19) SO THIS IS HIS PRACTICE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. His determination is "I will" not speak in tongues period unless my vocal use of tongues edifies my own understanding. Not only so, I wil not vocalize tongues unless the hearers also are given the same understanding or else this occurs:

    16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


    If I pray with understanding as I determined above but don't give understanding to the hearers I am edified but I fail to seek the edification of the listeners:

    17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.



    Yes, and your interpretation does not stick to the Biblical context. He is not merely talking about speaking in tongues in the Church but when he speaks of himself it is especially his use of tongues OUTSIDE the church as He says He will not speak tongues in the church (v. 19)

    18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
    19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue    .

    Hence, verses 14-17 where he refers to his own use of tongues is not INSIDE the church but OUTSIDE because INSIDE the church he refuses to use the gift of tongues and he goes on to explain why - it is the wrong place for the use of the gift of tongues for many reasons.
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Nov 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2012
  5. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    This area confuses some people. If you don't understand the various reasons for speaking in tongues, then Scripture itself can and will be used out of context in an attempt to prevent its use. For example, if you believe that the only use of tongues is in the public assembly of the church...and only when an interpreter is present--you can forbid its use at all other times. If you believe that tongues are only to be used when unbelievers are present--you can forbid its use under any other condition. Maybe you're seeing a pattern here. The goal of some is to forbid the use of tongues or to restrict it to a very narrow range of purposes, using Scripture to justify their position.

    Between the events on the day of Pentecost and Saint Paul's teaching to the Corinthian church, there are different purposes for tongues:
    Evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4 Acts 10:45-46 Acts 19:1-6)
    A sign to unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:22)
    A ministry of the Holy Spirit to express worship...to magnify and extol God (Acts 2:8-11 Acts 10:45-46)
    A public ministry gift used to communicate a message from God through an interpreter "when ye come together"--or the public gathering of the church (1 Cor. 14:26-28)
    Praying in tongues--or praying with the Spirit used in intercessory prayer (1 Cor. 14:14-17)
    Singing in tongues--or singing with the Spirit used in prayer and worship to God (1 Cor. 14:14-17)
    Blessing in tongues--or blessing with the Spirit (1 Cor. 14:14-17)




    He is not comparing the two here, he is comparing "praying in the spirit"(tongues) to praying with understanding (with your mind). That is to say one you understand what you are saying the other you do not. Just because we understand something with our mind does not mean it is of the flesh. The Holy Spirit can give us a burden to pray for someone and we pray with our understanding...that is not of the flesh.

    Yes, praying in the Spirit will build your inner man up without knowing what is being prayed.[/quote]
    It does not say that the one praying in the spirit is not being edified. Because vs. 17 says that He gives thanks well. The others are not edified without the interpretation.

    You added your own conclusion about it not edifying the one praying in the spirit! THe Bible does not say that!

    Paul taught two major areas for the use of tongues in the life of the Church-Age Christian. Each area has different rules that govern it. These areas are:
    The "public oral" use of tongues in the assembly of the church
    The use of tongues in our personal intercessory prayer life





    Because Paul understood the difference in the "praying in the spirit" and "public use". Paul prayed in the spirit more than all!

    It is only wrong if there is no interpretation. Otherwise Paul contradicts himself!
     
    #25 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2012
  6. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    THis will not clear up anything and it will not help your unbelief concerning tongues! Believe what the Word of God says about it!
     
    #26 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    By the way there is no confusion on this board about tongues and you do not have the ability to clear anything up. You just make your false case and argue it adnausium.
     
    #27 Revmitchell, Nov 12, 2012
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Tongues In The Public Assembly Of The Church

    "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" (1 Cor 12:28-30)

    "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." (1 Cor 14:19)

    "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence IN THE CHURCH; and let him speak to himself, and to God." (1 Cor 14:26-28)

    Is there any doubt that Paul is speaking about the various ministry gifts and the rules governing their public exercise in the church? When discussing the use of tongues in the Church, Paul put in place some specific limitations. He established these rules to keep confusion from occurring during the public gathering of the saints. The rules are for preserving order and to protect the integrity of the gospel. As an example, Paul tells us:

    "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" (1 Cor 14:23)

    In the area of public ministry to the Church speaking in tongues is limited along with the other ministry gifts as follows (taken from 1 Cor. 12:28-30):
    ...Not every believer is called by God to operate in the public ministry of tongues
    ...Not every believer is called by God to operate in the public minsitry of interpretation of tongues
    ...Not every believer is called by God to operate in the public ministry of an apostle
    ...Not every believer is called by God to operate in the public ministry of a prophet
    ...Not every believer is called by God to operate in the public ministry of a teacher
    ...Not every believer is called by God to operate in the public ministry of working miracles
    ...Not every believer is called by God to operate in the public ministry of healings
    ...For those that operate in the public ministry of tongues--they should only speak when they know the complementary gift of interpretation is present and in operation. Otherwise, they should keep silent during the gathering of the Church. They should not publicly speak out because speaking in tongues is not always understood by the hearers without an interpreter and it will cause confusion among visitors who may not understand what's going on.

    Paul's reason for saying this is not hard to understand....

    Paul's statements, "do all speak with tongues" and "do all interpret" must be kept within the context of the public ministry of the Church. Attempting to apply these statements outside their context leads to confusion and error. The answer is--no, all believers are not called by God to operate in the public ministry of tongues and interpretation of tongues any more than that of the apostle or prophet. This same limitation doesn't apply in all areas of practice.

    I apologize for the redundancy. Attempts are made to twist phrases and parse words in order to change the meaning of Scripture that normally should stand on its own merit. It is necessary to use the same repetition that Paul used in order to keep these Scriptures from being stripped from their context. The phrase "in the Church" is there for a good reason.
     
    #28 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  9. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    In other words you can not debate with scriptures to back up what you believe. Because when you line up what cessationalism teaches..it contradicts scriptures.
     
    #29 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I am not a cessationist. I do not believe that scripture declares, anywhere, that any gifts have ceased.

    My argument it the nature of tongues. Not whether they have ceased. Either way you have not made an argument. Posting scripture does not in and of itself make an argument.
     
    #30 Revmitchell, Nov 12, 2012
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are failing to understand the overall argument and then the immediate argument in chapter 14.

    1. Chapter 12 - Spiritual gifts are not determined by your desires or choice but by God, His will, His placement and purpose and He does not purpose for all Christians to receive all gifts.

    2. Chapter 13 - Spiritual gifts are to be exercised according to the principles of love because love is superior and eternal and gifts are not.

    3. Chapter 14 - Spiritual gifts used according to love seek the edification of all (vv. 1-17) but God never designed tongues to be used in the church but on the mission field as a sign to Israel (vv. 18-21) according to the scriptures. Their use in the congregation is not prohibited but restricted within the principles of edification (order and descency and propriety).


    Therefore you are denying salvation to anyone who does not speak in tongues for all who are not indwelt in the Spirit are lost - Rom. 8:7-9.

    Neither is it a sign to unbelievers but UNBELIEVING JEWS - 1 Cor. 14:20-21

    There are unlearned unbelievers (gentiles) who think you are crazy but to learned unbelievers (Jews that are learned in scriptures) it is the sign to them that their Christ has come (Isa. 28:12-15 with 1 Cor. 14:20-21.


    In neither case was it for worship. In Acts 2:8-11 it was to confirm Jesus as the Christ TO ISRAEL. In Acts 10:45-46 it was to confirm TO JEWS (Peter and the six other Jews) that God had accepted them and thus fit for baptism and membership in an all Jewish congregation.

    It is listed with the prophets (not merely prophesying) as used as a revelatory gift as they had no scriptures for Church policy and practice or doctrine.

    There is not even a hint of "intercessary prayer" in these verses. Paul is putting forth his own example concerning his REFUSAL to pray or sing or speak in tongues when his mind cannot be edified by it. He is rebuking any use of tongues that does not edify both the speaker and the hearer.



    No he is not! You are perverting the plain sense of these scriptures. He is condemning any use of tongues that does not edify both the speaker and hearer. To suggest his "inner man" is built up distinct and separate from his mind is absurdly rediculous and completely occultic.



    You are failing to completely to understand his line of argument. He already determined in regard to HIMSELF that "I WILL NOT" utter tongues without his mind participating. Neither will he simply edify himself with conscious understanding of what he is saying without sharing it when others are present regardless how he uses it (pray, sing, preach, teach, prophesy, etc.).


    16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


    If I pray with understanding as I determined above but don't give understanding to the hearers I am edified but I fail to seek the edification of the listeners:

    17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

    It most certainly does if you simply follow his argument from verse 13. He is refering to HIS OWN PERSONAL use of tongues in verses 13-16. He is determined NEVER to speak in tongues unless his own mind is edified and NEVER simply for self-edification when others are present as that violates the principles of edification for the use of gifts according to the way of love (v. 17).

    You clearly do not understand the clear teaching of Paul but simply insert what you want where you want it.
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Nov 12, 2012
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    A debate will not happen between those that agree!
     
    #32 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It is rediculous to beleive what Pentecostals claim to be "tongues" today has anything to do with Biblical tongues or the Spirit of God. One must purposely twist, stretch, pervert and ignore the plain teachings of scripture on this subject to justify the "ecstatic" utterances today as Biblical gift of tongues
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Nov 12, 2012
  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I agree that the Holy Spirit does not manifest Himself through all the same way!

    I agreed up to the point where you said that the gifts are not eternal. Where does it say they will all cease?

    I agree that again to the first part of this..but I do not see anywhere in scriptures where tongues are to be used in the mission field to evangalize. Verse 18-21 does not prove this! THese verses are still talking about the setting of the assembly.




    YOu need to go back and read my post..I never said that! Just because one does not speak in tongues does not mean he can't!

    To them that believe not are unbelievers!

    How do you read that into those scriptures?




    And Acts 19?
    Magnifying God... praising God is worship!



    And you get this from what scripture? Prophets is how they God spoke to the OT saints.



    Wrong! He states in vs. 17 that they gave thanks well! Also in vs. 2 He mentions they are speaking to God..that is prayer!





    No, the scriptures are plain! Jude 20!





    He said he spoke in tongues more than any! He tells them in vs. 28 to speak to God if there is not an interpreter. That is prayer!


    That is what I was seeing that you were doing! YOu are adding to Paul interpretation of praying in tongues.
    Do you agree that Paul is calling tongue "praying in the spirit"?
     
    #34 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
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  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I have shared scriptures! ..not a Pentecostal claim! I do not know what they claim.! I am in a Baptist church that believes in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. We do not believe they have ceased!
     
    #35 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  16. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Tongues In Intercessory Prayer Life

    "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Cor. 14:14-15)

    "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Rom 8:26-27)

    Notice several things about Paul's comments in these passages. There is a Biblical variation of speaking in tongues called "praying in tongues" or "praying with the Spirit" (Paul's own words). Some Christians refer to it as a "spiritual prayer language". That description does not disagree with Paul's definition. Notice that Paul doesn't place this activity in the realm of public ministry. It's important because this area of prayer is one of the supernatural benefits and characteristics of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Notice in 1 Cor. 14:14-15 that Paul says "praying in the Spirit" is something that bypasses our natural understanding (i.e. your understanding is unfruitful). Praying in the Spirit is yielding in such a way that we allow Him to operate in this area of tongues (or unknown spiritual language). Paul tells us more about this unique expression of tongues:

    "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (1 Cor 14:2)

    There is a powerful truth here. Paul is telling us something of monumental importance. Praying in tongues allows the Holy Spirit to use you as an instrument of spiritual prayer, which goes far beyond your knowledge or intellect. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He's God--and He's omni-present and all knowing concerning everything happening in the world--AND HE LIVES INSIDE THE ONE PRAYING. When you allow him to have control of your mouth through praying in tongues (or "praying with the spirit")--you are giving Him the opportunity to pray through you (and back to God) about things involving God's kingdom. You only have limited head knowledge--God's Holy Spirit has total and complete knowledge. You're allowing the Spirit to "speak mysteries"--using you as the willing pathway. Yet, Paul tells us that we're the ones that make the decision to allow the Holy Spirit this access. We can choose to "pray with the Spirit" (tongues) or we can pray using our understanding (which is limited). Paul tells us that we can and should use both these methods. Those who reject the spiritual gift of tongues place a severe limitation on their overall prayer life.

    The other advantage of "praying with the Spirit" is that it allows Him to help our infirmities. It permits Him to "make intercession for us according to the perfect will of God" (Rom. 8:26-27). I will ask the question: Would you rather pray about your own needs using your own limited understanding, or would you want the Holy Spirit (who has all knowledge) to help you in this task? Our understanding can't always get the job done. Many times, we don't know the will of God in a situation. Many times we don't know how to pray, or for what. Yet, the Holy Spirit always knows because He's God. Praying in tongues is God's way of releasing the indwelling Holy Spirit into this role. These are powerful spiritual gifts given to every believer through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Unlike the public ministry gift, this one is available to all believers.

    IMPORTANT: This area of our personal prayer life represents one of the most important aspects of speaking in tongues. It is not restricted to having an interpreter present, as in the public gift, because an interpreter is not needed in this case. It's part of the "Intercessory Prayer Ministry" of the Holy Spirit and it's never to be confused with the "oral" public ministry gift.
     
    #36 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No we do not agree. There is neither scripture to support the idea that they have ceased nor is there scripture to support that they are for the edification of the church.
     
    #37 Revmitchell, Nov 12, 2012
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    #38 The Biblicist, Nov 12, 2012
  19. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    1 Cor. 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to evry man to profit withal"
    What does that say to you of why they were given?
    NOt to mention chapter 14 is correcting the Corinthian church because they were not edifying the church through the spiritual gifts.
     
    #39 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    #40 awaken, Nov 12, 2012
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