Featured Coming to God

Winman, you have been shown in multiple posts and through multiple threads the answer to the question.

You refuse the answer.

Why should the matter even concern you anymore?

You haven't been swayed before; you have demonstrated that you are confirmed in your own opinion.

What more could be said that would cause you to agree to the truth?

Peter said, "Thou art the Christ" because it was given to him by God to say it. Peter wasn't saved until Pentecost.

Caiaphas was not saved but prophesied: John 11:

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man does many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; ​

Another example - Abraham Genesis 15:

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it...
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, ​

Have you not been shown before such evidence and other examples - and you rejected?

The God of heaven does not need "invited" into a person's heart. By the above three examples He is just as capable of speaking and working in the unregenerate before salvation, and even if salvation does not come to that person.

The problem seems that you are hooked on "free will" and "free choice" and concerned with some type of human generated faith and volition to "accept" and "receive" as if it were in humankind's power.

Perhaps you forget that Romans teaches that the Word is already in the heart and in the mouth, before confession of salvation.

In effect, God will save whom he selects irregardless of the human condition and ability.

Perhaps your question might be better asked, is there any Scriptural evidence that anyone ever expressed belief without the direct and purposed work BEFORE the expression of such belief?

The answer of course is NO, for that would violate Ephesians 2.

Therefore, the proof you desire has been shown and is Scriptural.

 

Agedman said;

Actually, Jesus said the Father had "revealed" this to him.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

But you are catching on, when Jesus spoke of those who were "given" in John chapter 6, he is speaking of men who had received revelation from the Father. This was through the word of God. Peter realized Jesus was the Christ because he knew the OT scriptures and recognized Jesus as the promised Messiah shown in scripture.

Peter was saved long before Pentacost, he believed after Jesus's first miracle of making water into wine.

Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Peter did not receive the Holy Ghost until John chapter 20;

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Peter was saved when he first believed on Jesus, but he did this without the indwelling Holy Spirit. His sins were forgiven. Peter believed, and righteousness was imputed to him.

You are correct. But Caiaphas was the high priest and the Holy Spirit came upon him. He did not have the "indwelling" Spirit. In the OT the Holy Spirit could come upon any man whether he believed or not, but the Holy Spirit did not necessarily stay with him. King Saul is an example of a man the Holy Spirit left.

The issue is whether Caiaphas could be spiritually alive. No man can be spiritually alive as long as he remains in his trespasses and sins. And no man can be forgiven his sins unless he believes.

Abraham was saved when he believed. Only after he believed were his sins forgiven and righteousness was imputed him.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The scriptures do not say God justifies the regenerate, but the ungodly. A person is not regenerate when he believes, he is ungodly. When he believes he is justified, his sins are forgiven and righteousness is imputed to him. NOW he is regenerate.

You cannot be spiritually alive and UNGODLY at the same moment. It is sin that makes us dead, we are DEAD IN SIN. Only when a person believes, at that moment God JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY (not the regenerate).

You teach that God regenerates a man before he has the ability to believe. Therefore, you teach that God justifies the GODLY, the regenerate. You teach that God justifies a man who is already spiritually alive. Besides being utterly unscriptural, it is nonsensical.

If a man is already spiritually alive, born of God, a son of God, then why does he need to believe on Jesus? This is nonsensical. It also denies Christ, you are saying a man has spiritual life outside of and without Jesus. This is serious error.

 

Or Cornelius was a lost sheep who when he heard about the faith, that is Jesus the Christ dying for his sin and his Father raising him from the dead, he became a believing one, a found sheep by being given the promise of the Holy Spirit setting him apart unto salvation.

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul a lost sheep, in unbelief, heard about this same faith from Stephen, yet was consenting unto his death. Left for Damascus in the same condition.

How did he become a believer?

 

This statement appears to agree with my statement. But note it is vague and left up to the readers inference.

To repeat, Romans 8:7 does not say natural unregenerate men are unable to set their mind some of the time of godly things such as the milk of the gospel. Calvinism simply pours that assertion into the text.

1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say the natural man cannot accept ALL spiritual things, that idea is poured into the text. But if you read through to 1 Cor. 3:3 you see where natural men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel because Paul said he was speaking as to men of flesh. Thus the spiritual things that the natural man cannot accept in context are spiritual meat things, not spiritual milk.

Next John 12:39-40 says God hardened hearts. If total spiritual inability were true, God would have nothing to harden, they would have been blind already. So the very passage cited refutes the doctrine. And if you read through to verse 42 you see some folks believed but did not confess.
Therefore limited spiritual ability which can be lost is being taught.

Next we have 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 which teaches the possibility that the gospel could be veiled, but does not say it is veiled to everyone, that idea is poured into the text by Calvinism. Notice in verse 2 Paul says they are commending themselves to every man's conscience. So the idea is like the four soils, some like the first soil are so hardened the gospel is veiled, but the rest can hear and understand and respond with their limited to spiritual milk ability to have the gospel planted in them.

Here we have a straight-up denial of scripture. The second soil received the gospel with joy, but then when hardship came, fell away. If he had been regenerated, born again, then his faith would have been protected, 1 Peter 1:3-5 and could not have fallen away. But he went out from us because he was not of us, never saved, Jesus never knew him. Matthew 13 proves to any objective reader that total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

All true! Note God made us alive together with Christ. Regeneration occurs when we are united with Christ, not before God puts us in Christ. Verse 8 says we are saved not of ourselves, God does it by grace through our faith. Thus God credits our faith as righteousness and on that basis puts us spiritually in Christ.

Lets go over these Calvinism assertions yet again. Was man dead in his trespasses and sins? Yes. Unable to save himself? Yes. Unable to come to God? Well that depends on what is meant. Unable to seek God through works or faith? No. Unable to come to Christ based on willing or works? Yes.

The first move is not regeneration, which is proved by John 1:12-13 which says after we have believed, then we are given the right to become children of God born from above.

Does God make the first move? Yes, we love Him because He first loved us. He revealed Himself, died on the cross, and became the propitiation for the whole world. But this is not the fiction of "irresistible grace" because that is proved false my Matthew 23:13. Calvinists love to claim "secret regeneration" anytime someone accepts the milk of the gospel, but Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that ploy is fiction.
Men were entering heaven. Therefore under the influence of irresistible grace and unable not to "willingly" trust in Christ. However, they were blocked by false teacher and false doctrine.

Calvinism pours its doctrine into this text, seemingly unable to see they are adding to the text. But lets ask some questions. Understands what? The gospel? Nope, does say any of that. There is none when. At all times? Nope does not say that. Does it say there are none that ever seeks God? Nope, does not say any of that. No shoddy bible study is needed to see what is as plain as the nose on your face. Calvinism has been added to the text. They cite John 12:40 and ignore John 12:42.

Gee, I thought perhaps one Calvinist would get through one post without resorting the logical fallacy of personal attacks. But no. I am charged with repeating my self where I rebut their endlessly cited usual suspects with repetitive explanations.

Shuck and jive. I said no OT saint was regenerated, made perfect, put spiritually in Christ until after the New Covenant was inaugurated. I supported this citing Hebrews 11:39-40.

In summary, regeneration before faith has been shown once again by John 1:12-13 to be false doctrine. Regeneration before being placed in Christ has been shown once again by Ephesians 2:5 to be false doctrine. Total Spiritual inability of all men at all times has been shown once again by Matthew 13:1-30 and Matthew 23:13 to be false doctrine.

 

What is the power that he gave them?

Romans 11:4,5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So what you are saying if I understand correctly is, only God could provide the means for grace but only to those who elect to receive him and believe on his name actually are given grace.

God doesn't actually reserve them to himself he just provides the way and they elect to be reserved unto him?

 

van,

really.....it does not say they are unable to eat broccoli, or spinach either, but what the text does say is instructive.

sounds like something else in scripture.....
Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Does not say he cannot drink milk either??? We can do thia all day Van.:thumbsup: Do you intend to re-write all scripture that IS GOD given??

 

The grace of God that brings salvation has APPEARED to all men (Tit 2:11). It is not given, but it has been shown. We have access INTO this grace by faith.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God's grace has appeared (which means men can see it) to all men, but we only have access INTO this grace by faith.

As far as the elect, I believe the scriptures say we are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father (1 Peter 1:2). I believe God could foresee and know those persons who would believe on Jesus in time, and God chose these persons.

I have given several examples of what I believe is foreknowledge in scripture. Before Nathanael was called by his brother and believed on Jesus in John chapter 1, Jesus told Nathanael he had seen him under the fig tree. Jesus knew Nathanael in a personal way, though Nathanael had never met Jesus. Jesus called Nathanael "an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile". Compare this to Rom 2:28-29;

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Note that even before Jesus actually met Nathanael, he knew Nathanael's heart and called him a true Jew, an Israelite indeed. And note that Jesus praised Nathanael, just as Romans 2:29 says.

So, I believe this is an example of God's foreknowledge in scripture, written for our benefit. I believe God can foresee those who will believe in time, and chooses these persons, they are the elect.

Does that mean any man is excluded from the possibility of being elect? NO. God could foresee who would believe, but he did not determine who would believe, men choose of their own free will, though no man could come to Christ unless he were drawn.

 

This passage does not say a WORD about regeneration.

This verse does not say a WORD about regeneration- whether it is present or absent- either way. It does not say a WORD about it.

Once again- not a word.

But, let me get this straight. Are you saying that a man can come to Christ completely apart from the Holy Spirit???

 

I think we would all agree with this statement. The question is what is the nature of God's action. Are all God's acts of self-revelation effectual in intent? In other words, when God sends mankind an invitation for a response, is it sufficient to enable that response, OR must God effectually change the nature of the man so that he will certainly respond?

That is the real issue here. It's NOT whether or not God must act, because He has already acted...He still is acting. The issue is the nature and intent of His actions.

 

Let me get this straight. Are you saying the GOSPEL is not a work of the Holy Spirit?

 

Baalam's ass did too. (At least as concerning "speaking truth to power" :laugh. It is not required to be saved to prophesy.

 

It shows THE WICKED have the ability to turn to God in repentance. Is a born of God, spiritually alive man called a WICKED man?

This verse shows a man first turns to God in repentance and afterward receives the Spirit. Can a man be regenerated without the Spirit?

Again, scripture shows a man can repent and believe, and afterward receives the Spirit.

How can a man without the Spirit be regenerated? How does that work? The Spirit is life. If a man has not the Spirit, he is none of Christ's (Rom 8:9), so how can he be born again, how can he be a son of God if he has not received the Spirit?

And no, I do not believe any man can be saved apart from the word of God, Jesus said his words are spirit, and they are life. But a man has to receive Jesus's words, he has to believe them.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

It is the Spirit of God that quickens a man, this is given through the word of God which is spirit and life. But you must BELIEVE.

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

Isaiah 55:3-7

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


Now for starters, no one can do this apart from the work of God. No one will come to God of their own volition; I just want to make this clear. When God begins drawing someone, they must forsake their wicked ways. The prodigal son had to come out of the "hog lot", and when his father saw him coming, he ran out and met him. Now, while God is drawing them, they are still in a state of condemnation. It's when they believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that they are saved and placed in Christ. No one is made alive to believe, and then be placed in Christ at a later date.



John 5:24,25

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Hearing and believing is what causes someone to pass from death unto life. Life doesn't bring hearing and belief, but vice versa.




John 6:47-56

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


No one has any life outside of partaking of Jesus' blood and flesh(spiritually speaking). We either have eternal life abiding in us or we don't. We are either justified or condemned. It's when God saves us that we pass from condemnation into justification, from eternal death abiding in us to eternal life abiding in us. When we are saved, we are given life and placed in Christ(we partake of His flesh and blood).

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::jesus::godisgood:

 

Excellent post Willis, especially John 6:53 which says unless a person believes on Jesus they have no life in them. This teaching that a man can have spiritual life before believing is utterly false and against scripture.

 

I agree. But please note that there indeed are people who at least appear to be saying that unregenerate man is perfectly able to come seeking after God so long as that man is not in the ACT of sinning at that moment; and that man is able to do this without God having to draw him (by his Word or by any other means).

This is Van's contention, for example.

As far as your question is concerned, I do think the power to bring sinners to God is in the Gospel.

But what that power does is regenerate some while not having any effect on others.

So the question goes deeper, in my mind, to why does that power have an tremendous effect on one man and absolutely no effect on another?

I think the answer is that God has not granted that EVERYONE should be effected by it the same, but that he has a particular people, a chosen generation, whom he has intended since eternity past to make alive by that powerful Gospel. This people WILL be saved because God, in his mysterious, divine, all-wise and benevolent purposes determined that they would.

 

Nope.

I don't see your point.

 

Many times.

One of the BEST of the them called himself the chiefest of sinners.

A man can NOT be regenerated without the Spirit. The Spirit working ON you and the Spirit abiding WITHIN you are not the same thing.

That does not AT ALL mean that the work that led him to repent and believe was not a Spirit-wrought work, Winman.

In fact, the Bible everywhere affirms that repentance and faith are the RESULTS of a Spirit-wrought work.

He cannot. He does not have to "receive the Spirit" to have the Spirit work on him and in him preparing him for salvation.

No man can even SAY that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Ghost.

The Bible is clear that we are born, not of the will of man, but of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit is the one that ENABLES a man to believe.

I agree. The question is, HOW does he receive them?

The Arminian argues, through prevenient grace.

The Calvinist argues, through being regenerated.

The "non-cal," whatever that is, argues that he needs neither. He needs NOTHING but to hear the words with his physical ears.

Other non-cals argue that he does not even need THAT much. He can run after God any hour of any day so long as during that hour he is not in the ACT of sinning- and he can do that without ever having HEARD the Word of God.

I agree. It is the Spirit that quickens a man, but salvation does not happen for ANY man who does not believe.

What the text does not say is that you must believe to be quickened.

In fact, the Bible teaches the OPPOSITE of that, as I showed you in the previous thread.

How are you trying to apply this great passage to this conversation?

 

This is a typical Calvinist defense. Claim Romans 3:11 says no one EVER seeks God, when in fact it does not say EVER or AT ANY TIME. That addition, not in the Bible, is claimed to be in the Bible. Falsehood.

Romans 8:7 certainly says the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God, but does this imply the mind cannot be set on Godly things? Nope, that addition, not in the Bible, is claimed to be in the Bible. Falsehood

In summary, there is no actual support for total spiritual inability, but loads of support for limited spiritual ability, the ability of unregenerate people to hear, understand and learn from the milk of the gospel. Matthew 13:1-30 has 3 of the 4 soils able to receive the gospel. Matthew 23:13 has people entering heaven but blocked by falsehood. Romans 9:30-33 has people seeking God through works and through faith. The Rich young ruler was seeking God through works. All the verses that speak of God hardening hearts teach they had some spiritual ability before being hardened. Preaching in parables to prevent folks from understanding, repenting and being healed. On and on the Bible teaches the unregenerate have limited spiritual ability which can be lost.