Comparing online seminaries

The problem is that the faculty has its degrees from less than wonderful schools. Some of the schools are pretty much degree mills.

 

This seems to be a credible seminary with quality people in leadership. However, I probably would disagree with its philosophy of seminary. My own concept of seminary is equipping rather than training how to do. The difference is between teaching the tools (e.g. Greek, Hebrew, hermeneutics, etc.) and teaching specific methods and applications (e.g. how to type courses). This, IMHO, is the difference between education and training. Personally, I opt for the educational model.

Also, the seminary seems to be tied into a specific philosophy—the purpose driven viewpoint. This, IMHO, is a specific ministry model based on motivational and human resource management philosophies of Rick Warren. Therefore, the students are taught one specific model of ministry rather several differing models. This is simply an analysis, not a condemnation. We're not all alike.

 

Well, I have looked at Louisiana Baptist University and have a couple of comments (I am not a graduate nor do I attend there). Based on what I recall, your assertion that LBU has enrollment as high or higher than Bethany Divinity College and Seminary is incorrect. IIRC LBU's enrollment is about 1100 (less than that of Asbury). </font>[/QUOTE]I do not doubt your integrity or information but I would like to know the source. My information may be incorrect but I expected the figure to be greater than 6,000. I do see a lot of LBU doctorates out there.

I will agree that they have improved and are making progress. However, I still am not willing to endorse or accept their doctorates as real academic degrees.

LBU has a checkered past with its roots in Christian Baptist University. Some of the key people have their degrees from the days of very loose standards. This makes it hard to shake off the bogey until you have sufficient attrition to replace these folks. I have noticed the trend of some people with degrees from less than wonderful schools to shake loose of the albatross. For example, Rick (aka Josh) Walston of Columbia Evangelical Seminary no longer lists his doctorate from Bethany.

Also, the presence of faculty with accredited doctorates does not always say what it seems to say. You can find people with respectable degrees lending their names to degree mills. Sometimes the purpose of listing these people as faculty is simply to give the impression of academic respectability. They may teach only one class, lecture at a seminar, or mentor a student. The question is what role do they play? Andersonville claims as faculty members the lecturers whose tapes they use.

Unfortunately, the good old boy system is alive and well in Christian circles too. Endorsements really carry the same value as infomercials. Jack Van Impe and Hans Koch (deceased), who had a real doctorate from Basel, endorsed Christian Bible College (see http://www.christianbiblecollege.org/ and click testimonies ) in Rocky Mount, NC, which is a degree mill run by Cecil Johnson who boasts a string of degree mill sheepskins (His only real degree is a Th.G. from Tabernacle Baptist Bible Institute of Virginia Beach, VA). Additionally, D. James Kennedy lists an honorary doctorate from CBC (see http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/fulltime.asp and click information) and Frank B. Minirth is listed on the board (I don’t know how this happened). It seems that Johnson just mailed the honorary degree to Kennedy and he listed it as one of his degrees. The degree does more good for CBC than D. James Kennedy who really doesn’t need another degree especially from CBC. Andersonville similarly awarded an honorary doctorate to a friend of mine. This college business is rather like the endorsements on book jackets by people who deny having seen or read the book when I ask them personally.

Unfortunately, people don’t always check out things but they accept them at face value. It’s all about Christian politics.

Yeah, you could find degree mill rags among accredited university faculty too. Folks just don’t ask or investigate.

Perhaps the jury is still out.

 

Nord,

Seldom do I personally address another poster on the open board—this is the usual function of the PM. However, I am addressing you because your post uses the informal logical fallacy known as “abusive ad hominem”. Now, I am not saying that you were rude or hateful toward me but you seemingly base your argument on personal things about me rather than whether my premises are true or my reasoning is valid. My intent and motivation are irrelevant to my argument. I have highlighted some of these things in your post for illustration. You are way off base in your assessment of thoughts and mental processes which puts you out on a limb since one person cannot read another’s mind. On what do you base your accusations of mean spirited and not fair? On the other hand the whole tone of your post seems defensive? Where do you find emotionally laden words in my post? I have highlighted the emotional words in your post.

Here are my cogent answers to your objections:
i. I was wrong about the enrollment. However, they do enroll in excess of 1,000 students, which is comparable to a fairly large seminary. The traditional seminaries are generally smaller. I don’t know the mix of graduate and undergraduate students. Overall, my point about enrollment is still in the ballpark although I was wrong on the numbers and the point is not as dramatic yet valid.
ii. I’m sorry that you couldn’t make the connection but this was in response to your idea that association with credible people gives credibility. I say not valid. People use other people, as I illustrated, to create an aura of respectability and credibility. These famous folks are so busy that they don’t have time to check out the details on everything they appear to endorse. That’s just the way it is. Like others, LBU uses name association of further their own ends. So, name association means nothing in the final analysis. Jack Van Impe endorses Christian Bible College, a degree mill. (BTW, he holds one of his doctorates from CBC.)
iii. Just how much do you know about LBU? I have followed this school since the 1970’s when it was run off of a mimeograph machine in the back of a church. Much of its philosophy was based on the write a big paper and get a degree philosophy. There was little consideration of originality, advancing knowledge, quality controls or scholarship. Some of this residual misdirection still seems to exist at LBU. For the Ed.D., their web site states: “The doctorate program in Christian School Administration consists chiefly of research projects that call for both academic research and practical application to the organization where you are presently employed.” I dunno about you but this sounds a little anemic to me for a doctorate. It’s the write a paper and get a degree scenario. I don’t see the academic qualifications in the faculty that would indicate academic rigor in their courses or the skills to demand high scholarship. The faculty did not have qualified professors who supervised their own doctorates to verify and instill rigor. Some even have definite degree mill rags.
iv. Endorsements mean nothing. This is good ole boy politics at the religious level. I don’t deny that many guys with big churches support this school. (Look at the connections of the LBU leadership with BBFI.) They carry clout because of their numbers but building a large church does not necessarily translate into scholarship and academic knowledge. Of course they like LBU because it is the source of their own doctorates, whether earned or honorary. It is embarrassing but I have friends with degree mill doctorates and they greatly laud the degree mill where they received their title.
v. Nord, I have neither the time nor inclination to go to great lengths in research and argument to justify my assessment but you can find some internal indicators in the LBU web site. Of course, this depends upon your knowledge and understanding of how these less than wonderful schools operate. For example, you noted that seven of the professors had their terminal degrees from accredited schools. This is true but what does it mean? So, what’s seven accredited degrees for 1,100 students? Like many schools of this genre, the entire listed faculty is not in resident and devoting a significant amount of time to the school—they are adjunct faculty. In this instance, I don’t think R. L. Hymers (pastor in CA), Chris Cagan (associate of R.L Hymers in CA) and Mal Couch (Tyndale Seminary) are there much. They are heavily involved in other ministries, which would leave little time for them to contribute to LBU. I suspect the same is true of the others in this listing. Similarly, you can find a number of IFB local church Bible colleges that list Lee Roberson as a faculty member. The man is over ninety years old, maintains a speaking itinerary and travels widely. They probably have him in to speak once a year and use his name and prestige for credibility. So, I really don’t think your argument for credibility based on the listed faculty is every convincing upon analysis.

 

How does LBU (Louisanna Baptist University) stand up to their own claims. The following quotes were taken from their web site http://www.lbu.edu/macquickfacts.html.

What does this mean? Were they first or does it mean they were innovative? What innovations did they pioneer? With the advent of the $50,000 law in CA, a lot of distance education schools emerged in the 1970’s.

Compare this number with the number given below. Do they offer 250 or 400 courses?

What are these progressive learning practices? I don’t think their technology compares with the streaming video and synchronized PowerPoint lectures of MIT and University of SC Medical School. I hardly think audio and CD’s are cutting edge 21st technology.

In all my experience and study of non-traditional education, I have failed to find a single mention of LBU, except from their own mouth or supporters, as a leader in this area. They’re early imitators at best. UNISA, University of London (100+ years), Open University (180,000 students), Union Institute, Goddard College and Excelsior College (formerly Regents College) were the leaders. LBU picked up on a trend.

This is still all hubris.

Many small Bible colleges with limited facilities, such as LBU possesses, charge only $65 to $85 per credit. LBU has low overhead. More substantial Bible colleges (more facilities and better qualified faculty) are the ones charging the higher rates.

Well, which is it? 250 or 400? Now, I really don’t believe that they have the most distance education courses in the world! More than Open University (UK)? More than UNISA (120,000+ students)? Now, come on! Don’t expect me to believe this! How are they counting their courses? IMHO, this is not so much prevarication as it is ignorance of the distance education field.

Now, how can 35 faculty members, most of whom are part-time at best, adequately teach 400 courses to 1,100 students? That’s greater than a 1:30 ratio (not good) if all the faculty were full-time. My hypothesis is that most of the faculty is very limited part-time with other ministries demanding most of their time. When do they teach or give personal attention to their students? How in the world did they write, produce, revise and update 400 quality courses? With a faculty of 35, it would mean each faculty member must write an average of ten courses. If they did two per year, a tremendous feat, it would take five years but the earlier courses need revision and updating by this time. Considering that the faculty is heavily part-time, this is even more incredible. Also, a first-class distance education production involves a lot of support personnel including audio, computer and video technicians. Does LBU have these? Distance education professors in secular universities usually have several graduate assistants who contribute significantly to the DE courses. IHMO, LBU is long on using superlatives and short on producing quality.

[ February 02, 2006, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: paidagogos ]

 

As I and others have noted, there are some good online programs but these are not the quick and easy routes to a doctorate. My interest is in directing students away from degree mills to a decent education for their money. The degree mills are a ripoff by taking your money and giving you a near worthless piece of paper in exchange. A good seminary gives a good education to go along with the degree.

 

Ed, we must all see humor in life even if it is about ourselves. I pity people who cannot laugh at themselves.

On the other hand, we must see some things in a serious light. IMHO, the substandard and some out-right-fraudulent organizations flying the Christian banner hurt the testimony of Christ. Therefore, my passion has been to point out and expose the things that harm the cause of Christ. Someone has to do this, as others are unwilling. It is better that we judge ourselves before we stand embarrassed before the world and ultimately before God. What do you think?