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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I have been reading a thread that is generating some passionate discussion on Romans 10:9-10. Most Christians know these two verses because they are part of the "Romans Road" presentation of the gospel. Romans 10:9-10 reads:

    "9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

    These two verses are not meant to stand by themselves. They are not intended to be a formula that a person follows in order to become a Christian, although belief and confession are an important part of conversion (more on that later). It is necessary to look at the larger context in which these two verses fit.

    1. Paul is writing about the Jews. In Romans 10:1 Paul writes, "Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation." The "them" in 10:1 can be traced back to Romans 9:31-33, "31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

    2. The Jews were trapped in a works-based righteousness system, trusting in adherence to the Mosaic Law rather than Christ (Romans 9:31-33; 10:1-5).

    3. Paul references a passage from Deuteronomy to make the point that the Law itself testified of Christ; that Christ was so near to them but their blindness obscured their vision. In context the passage reads:

    Deuteronomy 30:11-14 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it."

    4. This brings us to the correct interpretation of Romans 10:9-10. Romans 10:9-10 is not reduced to just audibly confessing one's belief that "Jesus is Lord". It actually is a refutation of any works-based system of righteousness. In the Jews of Paul's time, it was trusting in the Mosaic Law. Today, it could just as easily be trusting in Christian religious tradition such as baptism or observing sacraments.

    So, what about belief and confession? What exactly are they? Belief is the same thing as faith. It is impossible to become a Christian without saving faith. We are justified by faith. Faith is God-given. In fact, the emphasis on Romans 10:1-13 is on faith (belief):

    Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

    Confession is simply the articulation of this internalized truth. To put it another way, confessing one's genuine faith in Christ is outward evidence that a person has been born again. Baptism is one of the first steps of obedience for a new believer. It is one of the "loudest" confessions a new believer can make regarding his faith. As a believer matures in his faith his life should be an endless series of confessions of that faith. In this way, Romans 10:9-10 is not to be placed in a glass case with a sign that reads, "Break only when needed for witnessing." We should always be ready to give an account for the hope that is within us (c.f. 1 Peter 3:15).
     
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Faith is God given in the sense that we are created by God and therefore can have faith.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The basic problem with this view is that it presents faith of humans as an attribute that was not corrupted by the fall, and sin.

    To accept that human faith was in fact part of the fallen and incapable of righteous response, an alternative was necessary.

    That lead to the invention of prevenient/preceding grace.

    Not a single verse in the Scriptures support this human construct. To avoid the truth of Scriptures, people will invent and believe whatever supports their thinking especially when the it involves the matters concerning the eternity’s estate.
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Confession is a work of faith. The requirement of salvation is the faith alone in Christ alone.

    (Compare Romans 10:13-14, Asking and faitn & Mark 16:16, Baptism and faith. In any case of a work of faith, the work is not the requirement, the faitb alone in Christ alone is the requirement.)
     
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Agreed. The Fall affected all human faculties, including the ability to obey God by faith. I have quoted these passages ad infinitum, ad nauseam; Romans 3; 8:7; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13 that make it clear sinners are not sick in their trespasses and sins, they are dead (nekros). Sinners are incapable of any positive action towards God unless the Holy Spirit makes them capable. Of course, this takes us away from the OP and the proper understanding of Romans 10:9-10.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Scripture no where says that. The church in revelation was said, by Jesus, to be dead and yet he expected them to change. The Prodigal Son was said to be dead and yet he returned.
     
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  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    What became of the Laodicea church? Did they repent?

    Why would Christ spew them out if they were not in?

    Again, here are believers who drifted and Christ was warning of discipline to come.


    The prodigal was a son, a son who drifted, but repented and returned.

    Neither is an applicable example to the unregenerate.
     
  8. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Member

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    I've heard certain people interpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but is that what Paul is talking about here? I don't believe so. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

    Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

    1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
     
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Scripture never states that man was effected by this so called fall so that he is unable to respond to the gospel. Not even once.
    MB
     
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  10. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Where does Scripture say this?
     
  11. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Really? Nobody comes to Christ unless drawn by the Father. Nobody seeks after God. None are righteous. Looks like Scripture does say something about it.
     
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Show where it says man is not able to come to Christ. Nothing of what you said means anything with out scripture. Not to mention that most of what you are speaking about is what a fool said in his heart. Paul never stated this is the state of the natural man. Paul was quoting scripture Psalms 14 read it you might learn something.
    MB
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
    MB
     
  14. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    John 6:44

    You might want to review your position on this.
     
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  15. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    How exactly does this say that we can have faith simply because we are created? It doesn't say that at all.
     
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  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Does it state any part of man was not corrupted?
     
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  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    No man in his natural state is corrupt.in fact his flesh is still corrupt after Salvation It just does not say his corruption prevents him from seeking God's forgiveness or Salvation by faith.
    MB
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The verse in question states that faith has been dealt to every man..We all can place our faith where we want to. To say man cannot have faith until he is regenerated is just plainly wrong.
    MB
     
  19. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    It says faith has been dealt to every man? Romans 12:3? Are we reading the same book here? Who is the "you" in verse 3 referring to? Well, it is the people to whom the book was written. And to whom was the book written? The answer is in Romans 1:7 and it is not every man.
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    MB, would you kindly restate this. I have trouble following your thought line.

    You say, “No man in his natural state is corrupt”. But then say “.in fact his flesh is still corrupt after Salvation”

    Seems contradictory which is why I ask for clarification. I think I overlooked the missing coma and doing so lost your meaning.

    What do you consider is the condition of Adam as he was dismissed from Eden?

    Was he a fully and completely unrighteousness man unacceptable to regain what was discarded?

    Is there any part of unregenerate man that escapes condemnation (condemned already)?

    Did Adam seek restoration, or did he hide from God and blame others?

    Who sought out the other in Eden?

    The Adam of Eden who is the only one who regularly took an evening stroll in face to face sharing surely had something of worthiness, when dismissed from Eden. In what capacity did he not loose every privilege of Devine fellowship outside of first offering blood sacrifice?
     
    #20 agedman, May 13, 2019
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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