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Featured Confession, Repentance: discerning the truth.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    His quote does not support your placing regeneration before faith. It does not mention regeneration at all.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Yes.
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    It does show that faith is a work of the Spirit upon the heart. You may call that what you will. I call it the New Birth without which no one can see or enter the kingdom of God.
    Baptist 1689 Confession (XIV:1).
    'The grace of faith by which the elect are enabled to believe, so that their souls are saved, is the work of the Spirit of Christ un their hearts [2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8] and is ordinarily brought into being by the ministry of the Word [Romans 10:14-17]
     
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  4. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for clarifying that it's not supporting placing regeneration before faith. Solid Baptists don't:

    Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith":

    "If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"

    Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":

    "the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Solid baptists understand Spurgeon and what the quote means.
    For some reason you missed it once again:Cautious
     
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  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    As Iconoclast says, you are missing the point spectacularly.
    The Gospel goes out to all; it is good news to all, but only some receive it. The reason is that, '...The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Corinthians 2:14). But to others the Gospel 'is the power of God unto salvation' (Romans 1:16). When the Gospel comes with the regenerating power of God, then men and women respond to it and are saved. 'The Lord opened [Lydia's] heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul' She did not open her own heart; Paul's word did not open her heart; God the Holy Spirit opened her heart to respond to the Gospel.

    This is what Spurgeon and Booth believed, and also Calvin and the others you quoted earlier, when you read their works properly and without cherry-picking extracts. As Spurgeon says, the warrant of faith is not the belief that one is regenerated, it is the conviction that one is a sinner and that Jesus Christ saves sinners; but that knowledge is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit.
     
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  7. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of how you guys might like to put it, no sinner can ever be "regenerated" before they repent of their sins! The Reformed nonsense that the Holy Spirit first "regenerates" the sinner, and then "enables" them to call on the Lord for salvation, is not more than theological speculation! True, God did open the heart of Lydia, as He does for all those who are "seeking" Him. It is clear from the events of Acts 16, that this woman was one a "worshiper of God", as was Cornelius in chapter 10. The Bible says that if you seek the Lord with all your heart, you will "find" Him (Deut. 4:29; Jer. 29:13), that is, He will manifest Himself to you! There is not a single verse in the entire Bible, that teaches that any sinner is first "regenerated", and then they "repent"! Titus 3:5 speaks of "regeneration", where the Greek says "born-again". So, it would appear from what some believe, that a sinner is "born-again" TWICE. First, when the Holy Spirit "regenerates" them, and then when they repent and are forgiven! Such is the folly of man-made theology!
     
  8. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Neither of you have interacted with what they wrote. Abraham Booth is quite clear in rejecting bumping regeneration before faith:

    "the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
     
  9. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    I have noticed, that when trying to convince a "Reformed/Calvinist" that they are wrong, even when the Bible clearly says so, it is complete waste of time! They are so entrenched in their theological clap-trap, that they will not see anything that does not agree with them! Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, who are very much self-deluded!
     
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You do know, don't you, that Booth was a five-point Calvinist? Booth in that extract is dealing with those who (like John Gill, John Brine and others) believed in 'Justification from Eternity.' I have not argued (and I don't think @Reformed has either) that one must be fully regenerate before one can believe. But it is absolutely clear from the Scriptures that I have previously quoted, that those who are dead in sin cannot somehow make themselves alive. There must be an initial work of God the Holy Spirit upon the heart. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power' (Psalm 110:3). Here is A.W. Pink on the subject, and you may be assured that Booth, Spurgeon et al would be in agreement with him:

    TOTAL DEPRAVITY APART FROM THE SPIRIT. Of course if men are only partly depraved (which is really the belief today of the vast majority of preachers and their hearers, never having been experimentally taught by God their own depravity), if deep down in their hearts all men really love God, if they are so good-natured as to be easily persuaded to become Christians, then there is no need for the Holy Spirit to put forth His Almighty power and do for them what they are altogether incapable of doing for themselves. And again: if “being saved” consists merely in believing I am a lost sinner and on my way to Hell, and by simply believing that God loves me, that Christ died for me, and that He will save me now on the one condition that I “accept Him as my personal Saviour” and “rest upon His finished work,” then no supernatural operations of the Holy Spirit are required to induce and enable me to fulfill that condition— self-interest moves me to, and a decision of my will is all that is required.

    But if, on the other hand, all men hate God ( John 15:23,25), and have minds which are “enmity against Him” ( Romans 8:7), so that “there is none that seeketh after God” ( Romans 3:11), preferring and determining to follow their own inclinations and pleasures. If instead of being disposed unto that which is good, “the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil” ( Ecclesiastes 8:11). And if when the overtures of God’s mercy are made known to them and they are freely invited to avail themselves of the same, they “all with one consent begin to make excuse” ( Luke 14:1 8)—then it is very evident that the invincible power and transforming operations of the Spirit are indispensably required if the heart of a sinner is thoroughly changed, so that rebellion gives place to submission and hatred to love. This is why Christ said, “No man can come to me, except the Father (by the Spirit) which hath sent me draw him” ( John 6:44).
    Again—if the Lord Jesus Christ came here to uphold and enforce the high claims of God, rather than to lower or set them aside. If He declared that “strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto Life, and few there be that find it,” rather than pointing to a smooth and broad road which anyone would find it easy to tread. If the salvation which He has provided is a deliverance from sin and self-pleasing, from worldliness and indulging the lusts of the flesh, and the bestowing of a nature which desires and determines to live for Gods glory and please Him in all the details of our present lives—then it is clear beyond dispute that none but the Spirit of God can impart a genuine desire for such a salvation. And if instead of “accepting Christ” and “resting upon His finished work” be the sole condition of salvation, He demands that the sinner throw down the weapons of his defiance, abandon every idol, unreservedly surrender himself and his life, and receive Him as His only Lord and Master, then nothing but a miracle of grace can enable any captive of Satan’s to meet such requirements.

    [From Pink's The Holy Spirit. The whole book may be found here: COLLECTION OF A.W. PINK'S WRITINGS May I encourage everyone to read the (quite short) chapters on 'The Holy Spirit regenerating,' 'The Spirit quickening,' 'The Spirit enlightening,' 'The Spirit convicting,' 'The Spirit comforting,' 'The Spirit drawing,' 'The Spirit working faith,' 'The Spirit uniting to Christ'?
     
    #30 Martin Marprelate, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I have noticed, that when trying to convince a Pelagian/Semi-pelagian/Arminian that he is wrong, even when the Bible clearly says so, it is complete waste of time! They are so entrenched in their theological clap-trap, that they will not see anything that does not agree with them! Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, who are very much self-deluded :Tongue
     
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  12. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    I am none of the above, just a Bible-believing Christian with no "axes to grind"! :Biggrin
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Of course you are! :rolleyes: Just like me!
     
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Brother,

    ,

    I know you were responding to another poster that I have blocked, but since you tagged me I will offer my thoughts. Even Calvinists disagree on the exact sequence of the ordo salutis. I am of the conviction that a creature cannot believe while still in his sins. The Holy Spirit must make the creature able to believe. How else can a sinner be made able except by the Spirit and what is that ability other than regeneration?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    'The doctrine of sovereign, distinguishing grace, as commonly and justly stated by Calvinists, it must be acknowledged, is too generally exploded [i.e. 'denied']. This the writer of these pages knows by experience to his grief and shame. Through the ignorance of his mind, the pride of his heart, and the prejudice of his education, he, in his younger years, often opposed it with much warmth, though with no small weakness; but after an impartial inquiry, and many prayers, he found reason to alter his judgement; he found it to be the doctrine of the Bible, and a dictate of the unerring Spirit. Thus patronized, he received the once obnoxious sentiment, under a full conviction of it being a divine truth.'
    [Abraham Booth "Memoir" Works 1, xxi]

    The best known work by Booth is The Reign of Grace which may be found here:
    The Reign of Grace, Abraham Booth | The Reformed Reader
    I have a slightly-abridged paper version in my library. Anyone who thinks that Booth may have been some sort of Arminian will do well to read it. I particularly recommend Chapter 4.
     
    #35 Martin Marprelate, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    In another place you made such a declaration of no Bible support, yet when shown, from the Scriptures, that which is contrary to your thinking, you did not forgo your error.

    Therefore, I greatly doubt your sincerity, and “the folly of (your) man-made theology” has been now solidly shown as extremely weak at best.

    Perhaps you did not read the quote Martin placed in post # 30.
     
  17. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    and your Scripture evidence is...?
     
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    If you don’t know the Scriptures better, then perhaps you should hold back the desire to condemn views that you find personally disagreeable?

    Again from Ephesians:

    3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5heb predestined us for adoption to sonshipc through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

    11In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​
     
  19. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the advice. However, if you would very carefully and prayerfully re-read what you have quoted above, you will see that it says nothing about "election TO salvation"! In verses 4-5 we read of the "choice" of God that those who are the saved, should like "holy and blameless" lives. God has "προορίζω", determined beforehand that these saved, born again by their faith in Jesus Christ, are "adopted to sonship" in the Lord Jesus. See the key words in verse 13, "you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation". Or as the Greek has it, "upon hearing the Message..." And, "WHEN you believed (upon believing), you were MARKED OUT...". This very clearly shows the "timing" of AFTER a sinner repents and is born again, that they are "adopted as children of God". There is not a single hint even here, to suggest what the "Reformed" try to get from this passage, of "predestined TO salvation"! If I have missed this, then show me how from here or other Scriptures, and NOT theology!
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You are just not attending to what I quoted.

    Chosen to be holy and blameless is both election and predestination. No way to read it in any other rational way.

    Such predestination is through Christ and according to His pleasure and His will. That is irresistible Grace.


    You desire to see a timing that is not available.

    Verse 12, 13 show that the “message of truth” was “the gospel of salvation.”

    The “marking” was the seal of the Holy Spirit.” The seal is NOT the gift of salvation, but that perseverance/preservation of the saints as expressed in the 14th verse.

    Because the drive to distraction in thinking that repentance must come before salvation, there comes a time when whole passages must become contorted to fit the scheme. Rather, it is certain that from this passage a demonstration of 4 points of the typical Calvinistic thinking.

    Repentance is important. Just not quite as presented in posts.

    However, those given by the Father to the Son will be raised.
     
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