Confessions of a Former Worship Leader

This is the first time the majority of the modern worship music is vertical, talking straight to God. In the past it has been mostly talking about God, but not to him. Though I suppose since most of Psalms is vertical, the early church also used more vertical worship songs.

 

Jonathan...

The current Praise and Worship is *not* the first time this has happened.

Remember David and the Psalms?

While I do not agree with Restoration Theology I do believe that we are seeing a Restoration of the Tabernacle of David. (However, mis-applied some use it. )

 

This is simply a false claim repeated by the "praise and worship" crowd, who often seem to despise anything not written by members our own corrupt generation.

Examples of songs from an old hymnal:

"We praise Thee, O God, our Redeemer, Creator-
in grateful devotion our tribute we bring;
We lay it before Thee, we kneel and adore Thee,
We bless Thy Holy Name, glad praises we sing

We worship thee, God of our fathers, we bles Thee-
Thru life's storm and tempest our Guide Thou hast been;
When perils o'er take us, escape Thou wilt make us, and with Thy help, O Lord, our battles we win"


"O Lord My god, when I in awesome wonder
Consider all the worlds Thy hands have made-
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder
Thy power throughout the universe displayed;

Then sings my soul, O saviour God to Thee
How great thou art, How great Thou art
Then sings my soul, O saviour God to Thee
How great thou art, How great Thou art."


"Joyful, Joyful we adore thee, God of glory,Lord of love
Hearts unfold like flowers before Thee,
Hail Thee as the sun of love.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness, drive the dark of doubt away
Giver of immortal gladness, fill us with the light of day"


Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father!
There is no shadow of turning with Thee;
Thou changest not, Thy compassions they fail not,
As Thou hast been, Thou ever shalt be.

Great is thy faithfulness, great is Thy faithfulness
Morning by morning new mercies I see;
All I have needed Thy Hand hath provided,
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord unto me."


"Jesus, the very thought of Thee with sweetness fills my breast;
But sweeter stil Thy face to see, and in Thy presence rest."


"Holy holy holy, Lord God Almighty, early in the morning our song shall rise to thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty, God in Three Persons, blessed Trinity.

Holy Holy Holy, all the saints adore thee, casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee, Which wert and art and ever more shalt be."


"Rock of ages, cleft for me;
Let me hide myself in Thee.
Let the water and the blood
From Thy wounded side which flowed
Be of sin the double cure,
Save freom wrath and make me pure."


"spirit of God, descend upon my heart:
Wean it from earth, through all its pulses move.
Stoop to my weakness, mighty as thou art,
And make me love Thee as I ought to love."


"Break Thou the bread of life, Dear Lord to me
As Thou didst break the loaves beside the sea:
Beyone the sacres page I seek Thee Lord;
My spirit pants for Thee, O living Word.

Thou art the Bread of Life, O Lord to me;
Thy holy Word the truth That saveth me:
Give me to eat and live, with Thee above;
Teach me to love the Truth, Fro Thou art love."


"Guide me Thou O great Jehovah, Pilgrim thru this barren land;
I am weak but Thou art mighty, hold me with Thy powerful hand.
Bread of Heaven, Bread of heaven, Feed me till I want no o=more,
Feed me till I want no more."


"Saviour like a shepherd lead us, much we need Thy tender care;
In Thy pleasant pastures feed us, for our use Thy folds prepare.
Blessed Jesus, blessed Jesus, Thou hast bought us Thine we are,
Blessed Jesus, blessed Jesus, Thou hast bought us Thine we are."


O to be like Thee, blessed Redeemer...

I need Thee every hour, most gracous Lord...

More love to Thee, O Christ, more love to Thee...

My Jesus, I love Thee, I now Thou art mine, For Thee all the follies of sin I resign...

O love that will not let me go, I rest my weary soul in Thee...

Saviour Thou dying love, Thou gavest me ... ...Something for Thee.

Nearer my God to Thee, nearer to Thee...

My faith looks up to Thee, Thou lamb of Calvary...

O Jesus, I have promised to serve Thee to the end...


On and on and on...

 

Guys,

I don't believe most in the "praise and worship" camp... and I still disagree that one must be either/or... perceive that the faithful songs of earlier generations are "tired" or "too old" or even "too out-dated." The songs you cited, and many many more are outstanding testaments, testimonies and theological treatises on the nature, character and person of God. Just because they are older does not make them unacceptable... concurrently, age does not necessarily imply greatness. Some of the newer songs of the modern worship movement will stand the test of time, most will not. Remember that this generation must have a voice to combine with previous generations...

Also, several posts back there was discussion of whether or not the "message" or Sermon was the only aspect of worship that was important. I'll put in my two cents, and you can give me change if you prefer. In my opinion, the songs are as much a part of worship as the spoken Word, as are other elements like giving tithes, prayer, and communion. All of these combine to provide a whole worship time.

Worship is our response to the revealed nature and character of God. One needs only to check out several of the psalms, as well as Isaiah and other passages to find that worship was a response when God's glory was revealed. I believe this can happen through the spoken Word, a hymn of praise, a chorus of faith, a testimony of joy, or even the giving of tithes and offerings. Whatever He desires to use to reveal Himself... and it may be a different experience for every person in the room... is completely up to Him. And I think to limit God to the spoken Word is like sitting down to a banquet table of food and only having a cupcake. Again, this is just my humble opinion, and I'm sure some of you will have a field day pulling it apart.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

Pastor David Cloud just recently posted a two part message on sermonaudio.com, CLICK HERE> Warnings about Contemporary Praise Music.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Amen.

 

I remember as a little one, going to a SBC church with my parents. I remember the older adults shouting terms like, Amen! Preach it brother! Yes Lord! Halelujah! Come quickly Lord! Praise Jesus! Thank You Lord! I remember weeping and raising hands. And then one day it stopped.

Not just at that church, but at many baptist churches across the board. Back then it was the norm to hear folks openly praise God. If you do those things today in the SBC, you're charismatic. In the traditional Baptist church, we still sing the same hymns we have sung for hundreds of years, but our worship style has changed.

 

You know, I almost always agree with you but this time I think you're really off base. There has been worship addressed to God since the earliest days of the church.

The problem here is not only is most of what's going on in the recent worship fad is that not only is it not "vertical", it doesn't even get off the ground. Today's worship music is designed to elicit an emotional response in the listener and so many Christians feel a tingle in their tummy and assume that must be God.

I have no doubt that they're sincere and I believe that God will honor that sincerety but, really, look at the words of your average worship song and count the number of times it refers to the worshipper, rather than the rightful object of worship.

 

Just off the cuff.. some songs I have sung in church that have been contemporary.. I want to see if you are right,..


"Hallelujah for the Lord our God, the almighty rains"

"God is so good, God is so good, God is so good, He's so good to me"


Hallelujah, Jesus is alive. Death has lost it's victory, and the grave has been denied.. Jesus lives forever, He's alive... He's alive.."

"Lord, you are more precious than silver.. Lord you are more costly than Gold... Lord you are more beautiful than diamonds, and nothing I desire compares to you.."

"You came from heaven to earth, to show the way, from the earth to the cross, my debt to pay, from the cross to the grave, from the grave to the sky, Lord I lift your name on high"

"Refiners fire, my hearts one desire, is to be holy, set apart for you my master.."

"Lord of all creation, of water, earth and sky.. the heavens are Your tabernacle, glory to the Lord on High.. God of wonders beyond our galaxy.. You are holy.. holy.. The universe declares your majesty.. you are holy... holy"

"You are my strength when I am weak, You are the treasure that I seek.. You are my all in all. Seeking you as a precious jewel, Lord to give up, I'd be a fool.. You are my all in all. Taking my sin, my cross, my shame, rising again, I bless your name, You are my all in all. When I fall down you pick me up, when I am dry you fill my cup.. You are my all in all.."

"Jesus, Lamb of God, worthy is your name.. Jesus Lamb of God, worthy is your name."

"When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of Glory died
My richest gain I count but loss
And pour contempt on all my pride

See from His head, His hands, His feet
Sorrow and love flow mingled down
Did ever such love and sorrow meet
Or thorns compose so rich a crown

Oh the wonderful cross, Oh the wonderful cross!
Bids me come and die and find that I may truly live.
Oh the wonderful cross, Oh the wonderful cross!
All who gather here by grace draw near and bless Your name.

Were the whole realm of nature mine
That were and offering far too small
Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul, my life, my all."

**********

All these are songs totally typical of being sung in a comtemporary worship service.. The only song that I can think of that the emphasis is really on yourself is this song that we sung from time to time.. I dont remember the verses, but I do remember the chorus.. Its sung very fast and has a "jumping beat".. everyone would jump and have their hands in the air and sing..


"Im alive Im alive Im alive in You..."
"Im alive, Im alive, Im alive in You..."


Very simple, very "tingly", but I have to admit, it got me awfully excited about God.

 

The old Hymns are *not* too 'tired' or too 'old', they are just sung that way!

I think, in some cases what has happened is that they have been heard so much that people no longer 'perk up' when they are sung.

Some of the lyrics and composition are *really* awesome.

But, if there isn't any 'heart' in the singing...


Yes, I like a lot of the older Hosanna & Daniel Gardener Style Praise and Worship.

However, some of the newest stuff leaves me 'flat'. Both inspiration wise and theologically.

For instance there is a popular song called 'God of Wonders'. But, one phrase *really* grinds me.

'God of Wonders, far beyond our galaxy'

Yes, I believe the author was trying to impress us with the majesty of God, far above our understanding.

But, Jesus went through an awful lot to be close to us. And, the thought of singing something that puts Him so far away....

I vote a lyric modification that replaces the offending line with, 'God of Wonders, right here in my heart.

Now that speaks to me.

 

Michael W. Smith has a song that irks me... I forget the name of it, but I think its too personal..

"You died just for me" I think is one line in the song..

That bothers me, because the bible says that He died for many people.. not just me personally.. None of us are worthy of that kind of sacrifice, but I think when you sing it and are boiling it down to just yourself, it becomes a different gospel..


am I making any sense?

 

Went to David Cloud's site and it appears he is a KJV-only adherent.

More than likely this means that anything that doesn't also adhere to KJV-only is automatically of the devil.

I did download the two-part sermon and will 'try' to listen on the way to/from work tomorrow.

Unfortunately, I fear he will alienate me almost immediately as I've heard these 'types' preach before as doom-saying exclusivists.

But, I *will* at least give him a few minutes.

 

I believe you're thinking of "Above All" Emily. The lyrics are at the end of the chorus, "He took the fall, and thought of me, above all." And I agree, I refuse to sing the "thought of me" part. Here at Cedarville we sing it something like "He took the fall, and is glorified, above all."

Mike, I see what you're saying, I just disagree. It seems to me (and this is totally personal opinion) that the better P&W songs are closer to the Psalms of David than anything else I have seen or heard from the last 1000 years. However you do raise valid points, and I can't dismiss them. Further consideration is warranted.

 

Rubbish. Don't destroy your own credibility by making attacks on people.

That's the thing, it's not on and on and on. In fact, out of 700 Hymns in your Hymn book, I bet you just listed a good number of those sung directly to God.

 

As stated before I did go to David Cloud's site and downloaded both halves of his Warnings against Contemporary Praise Music sermons.

I burnt the MP3's to CD's and was able to listen to the first 15 minutes of the first message before I decided I had heard enough.

First, he starts with the assumption that anyone participating in Contemporary Praise Worship is there only to gratify the lusts of the flesh.

From there I gather that he feels that any emotion or passion during worship is out of order.

He likens the atmosphere in Praise and Worship service as a 'party' scene or 'nightclub'.

I would like to refer him to

and

Now, here's the scene David was ecstatic about the prospect of bringing the Ark of the Covenant up and with it the very Manifest Presence of God. He was beside himself both exalting God and Exulting in God. (And, there is a very special promise for those who Exult in their God.)

In fact he was so 'beside himself' he stripped off his outer clothes so he could express himself with even more abandonment!

Personally I think, except for Bathsheba, David is a good 'type' to follow.

Further cloud-bank states rather emphatically and with disdain that everyone who is involved in Contemporary Praise and Worship is not saved and is going to hell.

If that isn't disdain for people who love Jesus and get happy in His Presence I don't know what is.

If would have been far better to call attention to the excesses, and there surely are excesses, and encourage 'focus', 'decently and in order', and 'moderation'.

Would to go that David Cloud's ministry would suffer the same fate as Michal... No children.

I *really* wish I had a verbatim transcript. As, there was no much derogatory stuff in just the first fifteen minutes I don't know where to begin.

He also called Contemporary Praise and Worship a 'movement'.

It is not a movement it is an outgrowth of the resurgence in Psalm Singing that came out of the Jesus People Revival. Some of which young people became some rather solid Baptists.

That excesses have and are occurring is not the issue. Even leaders of Praise and Worship like Matt Redman have admitted so. Mat in a song that stated his repentance for what he had made worships focus.

It, for *some* people, has become just another show-off performance opportunity instead of ministry both to the Body of Christ and to Jesus.

As for 'cultic' tendencies. One of the hallmarks of a cult is that they are the only ones right. No one else has the truth. And, the statement that you dare not listen to them or you might get messed up. Alienation, fear, and control. That's what David Cloud's sermon smacks of, IMHO.

He states that narrow is the way and straight is the gate...

Well, I agree, the *gate* is straight... But, it's a *gate* not a straight jacket!

And, narrow means exactly that: Except a man be born-again he can no enter the kingdom of heaven. There is no other name under heaven whereby men *must* be saved.

That is a *very* narrow thing to about 80 percent of the world's population.

But, David Cloud wants to exclude those that express passionate love for Jesus because he is uncomfortable with a style of expression.

And, as I said earlier he completely neglects the history of Israel...

When Israel danced before the Golden Calf they were judged, and judged severely.

But, when David (and I'll bet he wasn't alone, either) danced before the Lord he was blessed.

That horrible Pentecostal foggy Cloud bank mentions, Jack Hayford, states that it is no mere coincidence that Israel reached it's pinnacle of success during the days of David when Praise and Worship was practiced.

I am not sorry that I get *very* angry when some mere man attempts to exclude me from my Lord's side.

'foggy cloud bank' is going to be *really* shocked and surprised when (and if) he gets to heaven and finds a whole bunch of us radically Praisers there.

And, he'd better bring earplugs, too. Because heaven ain't going to be a quiet place very often of very long...

If you think the bass guitar is too loud now... What do you think the 'thunders' were John heard? (Just kidding)

When I get to heaven I intend to worship and celebrate. I do so in advance thanksgiving today because I believe the battle has been won.

 

Here's an idea: if you don't like P&W music, then don't go to a church with P&W music.

Paul wrote about psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Nobody on this list has given any proof to support the claim that P&W music is anything less than precisely that. The first post in this thread details the opinions of a former P&W Leader, and reflects the experiences he has had in his own life, nothing more. Opinions are not doctrine.

Some of you have criticized the song "Above All." How is the line, "You took the fall, and thought of me above all" anything less than wonderful? What about the parable of the lost sheep? It's the same principle.

Bottom line: if you don't like P&W music, then don't listen to it, don't sing it, don't frequent churches where it is utilized, and don't write about it.

 

Second only to Ruckman.....

 

Not really. I just browsed quickly, but probably a little bit less than half. That makes probably about 50, and that's just one hymnal.

I assume that you don't propose that ALL, or even MOST of the songs we sing must address God in the first person, so that makes pretty many songs available.

Assuming that your church uses at least some contemporary P&W music, and knowing that you are concerned about availability of the "first person" songs, I would ask you...how many of the 20 that I listed you have used in the last two months?

 

Two problems:

1) Many (most?) churches that DIDN'T use it are STARTING to use it. So, if it offends me, do you suggest that I leave my church, or suffer offense during each worship service?

2) Not writing about is would be nice for those of you who support it, but those of us who don't are not obligated to remain silent.


It has been my observation that many (not all) of those who push P&W music act in a pushy and insensitive way, a "get used to it" attitude. They seem to be on a mission, and blind to the fact (or just don't care) that they are legitimately offending their brothers and sisters in Christ during the very act of corporate worship.

So maybe I'd suggest, rather than:

"don't go to a church that uses it"

it would be better to say:

"if you want to use it, go start your own church".

 

Some of the traditional hymns:
Worship the quite time:

I come to the garden alone
While the dew is still on the roses
And the Joy we share as we tarry there
None other has very known

Andy walks with me
Andy talks with me
Andy tells me I am His own

 

P-Jim said:

If you've followed my posts you'll see how far I've come...

What Jim shares is common among initiates into Praise & Worship. I know it was for me. I was *that* way.

"P&W is the greatest thing in the church since salvation and it's here to stay!" Oh, P~l~e~a~s~e... That's as bad as the KJV-only group... Well... Duh...

In fact at one AoG church I was part of the Worship Team the pastor actually handed out cassettes of a sermon titled: "Worshipolitry".

That was the beginning of my education.

It is interesting to note that in my early days that *I* was the one offended...

No, the issue is, is where are God's People at that you as a member of the Praise & Worship team called to minister to and lead them into ministry to *Our* Lord.

If the attitude of the heart of the Worship Team is 'correct' and they understand they are called to ministry not performance... Then when P&W songs are used they will be accepted.

This is because love covers a multitude of sins. And, in seeking ministry instead of performance or doing the latest and greatest 'hoopla', songs will be selected that speak to the hearts of the people to their building up and edification.

If this is not done... You are performing not ministering. Period.

Sheep are lead not pushed... You can't lead them where you haven't gone yet. And, demonstrated a (positive) life changing encounter with Jesus.