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Confessions of a Former Worship Leader

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Aaron, Dec 28, 2003.

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  1. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    Dear Travelsong,

    I loved your response! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Obviously those who hold to that position never read Colossians 2:20-23:
    In Christ,

    Dale
     
    #101 Dale McNamee, Jul 26, 2005
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Is it really? Let's switch the subject from music to wine, which is one of the things actually addressed by Romans 14. (vs 21)

    Let's say your wife has a genuine conscience toward drinking wine. She feels it is a sin. She feels you are sinning when you do it, though there really is nothing evil about the temperate consumption of alcoholic beverages. She understands how you feel though, but just can't shake the feeling that you are offending Heaven when you inbibe, and it hurts her.

    Can you really say that you are demonstrating unconditional love for her if you merely abstain in her presence, or worse, if you hide it from her? Could you honestly be saying that you are laying down your life for her when you refuse to sacrifice your wine for the sake of her conscience?

    In fact, wouldn't be more of a slap in the face? Yes, it would.

    The point in Romans 14 is not courtesy, it's genuine love. What kind of love is courtesy? What do ye more than others? The guys where I work abstain from cussing in my presence. That's no Christian thing.

    Honestly, all you're doing is showing the same kind of courtesy that practically any worldly, cold-hearted non-Christian shows every day. There's nothing Christian about it, and is no where near the love commanded in Romans 14 or anywhere else in the Bible.

    Where the focus of my detractors in this thread is on how they should be treated by others, the weight of Romans 14 is laid squarely on the shoulders of the stronger, more knowledgeable Christians.

    What, then, is the good thing for the stronger to do? It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

    Now, just substitute "drink wine" with "listen to rock music." Hey, you're the ones that say it's the same kind of thing. (It isn't, but I'll explain later.)

    It is good neither to eat flesh, nor listen to rock music, nor any thing whereby they brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

    And where is the "in their presence" clause in this chapter anyway? Paul's sentiment was that he wouldn't eat meat as long as the earth stood if it caused his brother to offend. The "in their presence" condition is neither understood nor implied in this passage or any other concerning Christian liberty. It's a desperate attempt of the carnal mind to rescue pride and self will.

    If your family was truly grieved by your musical choice, I doubt they would consider you respectful if you persisted in your indulgence. So I doubt it's a real issue of conscience with them. I'd say it's more in the area of preference.

    But...

    The Bible does address musical styles. Paul mentions psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Though there might be some unknowns concerning the particulars, all the universally recognized authorities agree that the names indicate particular styles.

    And, the reason that Romans 14 doesn't apply to music is because music isn't a thing. It is not a time, like a day, nor is it food nor any other naturally occurring phenomenon.

    I said this before, but it bears repeating, because some here are dull of hearing. You can't pluck music from a tree or find it washed up on the beach somewhere. You certainly can't kill it and eat it. It is an act. It is a willful, intelligent act, and is therefore either good or evil.

    Music is thought, mood and demeanor, about which the Bible has much to say.
     
    #102 Aaron, Jul 26, 2005
  3. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    How do you handle the neutrality of just the vibrations (actually compressions of air) that make those things we call notes? Are they now animate and possessive of a soul?

    Methinks you're out on a limb, Aaron!
     
    #103 Daniel, Jul 26, 2005
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Are my words animate and possessive of a soul? Yet it's by my words I'll either be justified or condemned, Mt. 12:37. Let's see how well your rebuttal holds up on Judgment Day. In the mean time, perhaps you'd like to offer up a well-reasoned response to the facts I've presented.
     
    #104 Aaron, Jul 26, 2005
  5. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    Again, you're straw-horsing the arguments by assuming the Bible addresses style. It doesn't. Even you're Psalm, hymns, and spiritual song does not cast a moral judgment on what those genres should look and sound like.

    The conscience issue argument you made still doesn't measure up to the the level of causing another Christian to sin.

    The saw is cutting further through the limb... :eek:
     
    #105 Daniel, Jul 27, 2005
  6. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Perhaps you'd like to provide an example of this so called "evil form" of music so that we might all have a frame of reference.
     
    #106 Travelsong, Jul 27, 2005
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    First, it's "strawMAN," not "strawhorse." Second, I made a direct response to the points you made in your argument. Mine was not a strong man argument. I noticed you, however, abstained from a direct answer to my questions.

    Second, Paul said, "Speak to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The Bible named two styles and specified the general demeanor of all our interaction, then commanded us to do something with them. Therefore, the Bible is not silent concerning music. It does address them.

    If it seems that the distinctions are hard to understand, it may be that you approach them with an a priori assumption that it the Bible is silent. Why look closer at this if your presupposition is there's nothing to it? Couple that with your fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of music and it's easy to understand why you would make the mistake that the Scriptures are silent.

    Let's be perfectly clear. You're the one saying that music is a matter of conscience, not I. I merely showed you that even if it were, you still lose the argument.

    And the bottom line in passages like Romans 14 and 1 Cor. 8-10 is charity. You've turned a passage about loving one another as Christ loved the church into a license for self-love.

    Let's go on. Let's go to another passage that address music. Would you agree that music is a part of Christian worship?

    I know you do, so I won't wait for an answer.

    All all we do in Christian worship is to be seemly and in order, 1 Cor. 14:40. Did you notice the word "all"? Whether it's prophecy or psalmody, all we do is to be becoming of Christian demeanor.

    I had asked you before if you thought "head banger" would be seemly in a Christian gathering. In a careless moment you answered no, because loud, chaotic behaviour is not consistent with Scriptural teaching on the ruled and peaceful interaction of Christians.

    So there you have it, a musical style judged by you as non-Christian because of the direct, straightforward application of Scripture.

    I should say you furiously tried to backtrack, but it was too late. But that was the old, unregenerate Daniel. Perhaps the new one will answer truthfully and stick to it. ;)

    Are you still going to assert that the Bible doesn't address musical style?
     
    #107 Aaron, Jul 27, 2005
  8. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    Aaron...let first of all say that I can clearly see my inconsistencies. You have clearly and correctly illustrated them. Yes, the old unregenerate Daniel was a "piece of work" to be sure. I was very unkind and uncivil to you. (Some accuse you of being that way to me, but that is not for me to judge. Only you know your heart, Aaron. More on that later from a different angle...)

    As much as I would like to throw up my hands and say OK to your aruguments presented above, I can't. I do not believe we can judge styles of music or make a list. I remember that you have tried to explain the psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs passage in Ephesians 5 (a lot of Peter Masters teaching, right?), but I am not sold on it's "ironclad" presentation. There is a lot of interpretational freeplay.

    I am of the Romans 14 "let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind" philosophy on this matter. I am.

    To try to defend my "position" to you is likely unfruitful since you appear to be so set in your ways. (And, yes, I remember that you have said that I don't appear to have a Biblical foundation for my beliefs. I remember all of those arguments very well.)

    Yes, I understand you are "fully persuaded" in those ways you espouse, but not everyone can be or will be of your persuasion.

    As for charity, I seek to practice this. An example is my wife's church in Delaware. When I am there I gladly abide by their fundementalist music standards without griping and without trying to push any of my music on them. I desire to be charitable and gracious and non-pushy. I actually enjoy their music, too. But ten minutes later I can be heartily singing with MercyMe, Michael W. Smith, Casting Crowns, Steven Curtis Chapman with great joy in my heart to the Lord in unabashed and joyful worship.

    Aaron, try to be more reasonable and seek to be less condescending and bully-like. You are not very well liked on this board for your ways and demeanor in your posts. Yes, there have been PM's about you, but they have been in the spirit of compassion and care for your soul and testimony. True, I was wrong to judge your salvation, but I am not wrong to say that you come across as having a poor testimony on this board in the perceived spirit and tone, and in some of the sarcastic words/taunts you post. Think about it, brother. And, giving you the benefit of the doubt, you may be very nice in person. It's simply the above mentioned spirit of your posts that make us wonder what's up with you. Think about it, brother. We mean well.
     
    #108 Daniel, Jul 27, 2005
  9. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    So that evil form of music would be....?
     
    #109 Travelsong, Jul 27, 2005
  10. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    Dear Travelsong,

    That evil form of music would be whatever David Cloud,Dial-the-Truth Ministries,Terry Godwin,Peter Masters,Kimberly Smith,Frank Garlock,et al says it is! :rolleyes:

    In Christ,

    Dale
     
    #110 Dale McNamee, Jul 28, 2005
  11. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    Hi All!

    I looked up Ephesians 5:19 at the Matthew Henry Commentary website: http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC00000.HTM

    From the Commentary:

    " II. In the three following verses the apostle warns against some other particular sins, and urges some other duties. 1. He warns against the sin of drunkenness: And be not drunk with wine, v. 18. This was a sin very frequent among the heathens; and particularly on occasion of the festivals of their gods, and more especially in their Bacchanalia: then they were wont to inflame themselves with wine, and all manner of inordinate lusts were consequent upon it: and therefore the apostle adds, wherein, or in which drunkenness, is excess.

    The word asotia may signify luxury or dissoluteness; and it is certain that drunkenness is no friend to chastity and purity of life, but it virtually contains all manner of extravagance, and transports men into gross sensuality and vile enormities. Note, Drunkenness is a sin that seldom goes alone, but often involves men in other instances of guilt: it is a sin very provoking to God, and a great hindrance to the spiritual life. The apostle may mean all such intemperance and disorder as are opposite to the sober and prudent demeanor he intends in his advice, to redeem the time. 2. Instead of being filled with wine, he exhorts them to be filled with the Spirit. Those who are full of drink are not likely to be full of the Spirit; and therefore this duty is opposed to the former sin. The meaning of the exhortation is that men should labour for a plentiful measure of the graces of the Spirit, that would fill their souls with great joy, strength, and courage, which things sensual men expect their wine should inspire them with. We cannot be guilty of any excess in our endeavours after these: nay, we ought not to be satisfied with a little of the Spirit, but to be aspiring after measures, so as to be filled with the Spirit. Now by this means we shall come to understand what the will of the Lord is; for the Spirit of God is given as a Spirit of wisdom and of understanding. And because those who are filled with the Spirit will be carried out in acts of devotion, and all the proper expressions of it, therefore the apostle exhorts,

    3. To sing unto the Lord, v. 19. Drunkards are wont to sing obscene and profane songs. The heathens, in their Bacchanalia, used to sing hymns to Bacchus, whom they called the god of wine. Thus they expressed their joy; but the joy of Christians should express itself in songs of praise to their God. In these they should speak to themselves in their assemblies and meetings together, for mutual edification. By psalms may be meant David's psalms, or such composures as were fitly sung with musical instruments. By hymns may be meant such others as were confined to matter of praise, as those of Zacharias, Simeon, &c. Spiritual songs may contain a greater variety of matter, doctrinal, prophetical, historical, &c. Observe here, (1.) The singing of psalms and hymns is a gospel ordinance: it is an ordinance of God, and appointed for his glory.

    (2.) Though Christianity is an enemy to profane mirth, yet it encourages joy and gladness, and the proper expressions of these in the professors of it. God's people have reason to rejoice, and to sing for joy. They are to sing and to make melody in their hearts; not only with their voices, but with inward affection, and then their doing this will be as delightful and acceptable to God as music is to us: and it must be with a design to please him, and to promote his glory, that we do this; and then it will be done to the Lord.

    4. Thanksgiving is another duty that the apostle exhorts to, v. 20. We are appointed to sing psalms, &c., for the expression of our thankfulness to God; but, though we are not always singing, we should never want a disposition for this duty, as we never want matter for it. We must continue it throughout the whole course of our lives; and we should give thanks for all things; not only for spiritual blessings enjoyed, and eternal ones expected (for what of the former we have in hand, and for what of the other we have in hope), but for temporal mercies too; not only for our comforts, but also for our sanctified afflictions; not only for what immediately concerns ourselves, but for the instances of God's kindness and favour to others also. It is our duty in every thing to give thanks unto God and the Father, to God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father in him, in whose name we are to offer up all our prayers, and praises, and spiritual services, that they may be acceptable to God."

    Dear Aaron,I posted this extended quote to set a frame of reference regarding Ephesian 5:19 and as you can see "Hymns,Spiritual songs,and Psalms" are defined pretty clearly.

    Also,please note the mention of "with inward affection" being pleasing to God,the same with the subject of thanksgiving and joy. These are all "heart" issues and the attitude of the heart matters to God greatly.

    In Christ,

    Dale
     
    #111 Dale McNamee, Jul 28, 2005
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    *sigh*

    Daniel, since you've made this all about you again, there's something that we have to consider when you chime in. You've just been saved, right? You've been touting this as if this adds strength to your opinions, but all it really means is that your CCM "revelation" came while you were a stranger to God and void of the Holy Ghost, and all of this Bible study you've done about music was without His aid. You, according to your own words, are a babe in Christ. Your main concern right now should be to desire the sincere milk of the Word that you may grow thereby. There has to be a great deal of the Scripture that your carnal mind misunderstood or wrested to conform to its own worldly wisdom. You at this stage are a learner, not a teacher, for everyone who uses milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness, because he is a babe.

    So, I invite you to engage me in the argument. It's a good learning tool. But engage the argument or go away. I am really tired about this being about you. [​IMG]
     
    #112 Aaron, Jul 28, 2005
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Bonga Dale, I agree with almost everything in your last post.
     
    #113 Aaron, Jul 28, 2005
  14. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    Aaron...I've heard this argument (the babe in Christ thing)from some other people. It was not a new thought. I categorically reject it, Aaron.

    God now has full, unfettered access to my college training and 21 years of music teaching. Before regeneration I had read the Bible cover to cover at least 15 times (that's conservative). I have personally prepared and delivered literally hundreds of sermons. I hate saying all of this, Aaron, [trust me, I am not boasting in it] but I must illustrate the reality that I am not a babe in knowledge, skill, experience, etc. I cannot agree with your argument. It has been stunning to me as to how much sharper I've been since the Holy Spirit came in and now can bring all that data to reality and razor sharp focus. I have been stunned. It's all to His glory!!!

    No, it's not all about me. I would respectfully suggest that you take a good look at yourself. I was thinking about the "beam and mote" thing when I read your post. I (and many others) think the vast majority of the music forum is all about you. Please think before you cast stones. Thanks! ;)
     
    #114 Daniel, Jul 28, 2005
  15. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    Dear Aaron,

    You wrote:
    Thank you for your compliment! [​IMG]

    I'm curious as to what in my post caused you to say "almost" ?

    Again,thanks!

    In Christ,

    Dale
     
    #115 Dale McNamee, Jul 28, 2005
  16. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Huh, I've been trying to engage you for quite some time now. The "babe in Christ" argument doesn't work on me so I have to wonder, where are we finding the difficulty in producing this "evil form" of music?
     
    #116 Travelsong, Jul 28, 2005
  17. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    *sigh* I come browsing through this thread and what do I see - but this silly topic

    What is music?
    In simplest terms it is a tool

    It is by the definition the purpose that defines the tool

    Aaron you have defined what makes the music evil in CCM - and people have rebutted you - stop saying a mode of music is evil - its foolish - childish - and simply not worthy of anyone with the merest scintilla of rational thought.

    Stop attacking music - and attack what is really the problem

    As to some of your earlier posts - Cont: do the people like it? That phrase certainly isnt true - Cause some of the choices my church's worship team makes - make me cringe

    And some people do not treat church like they are in the presence of God - wouldnt hurt for some of them to be reminded

    As to the emotions aroused by certain types of music - it DIFFERS for each person? Something so subjective cannot be placed along the lines of black and white

    However I am rambling - you must define the purpose of CCM as purposefully evil - and all that does is not condemn music - but rather the purpose to which the music was put
     
    #117 Sularis, Jul 28, 2005
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Can we all agree now that the Bible does at least address some forms of music, and that the premise that the Scriptures are silent about the issue is fallacious?

    Just looking for a starting place.
     
    #118 Aaron, Jul 28, 2005
  19. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    Sularis...you are dead on target. This is a subjective thing, not objective. God did not and does not address musical style in the Bible. The Eph. 5 thing that has been beat to death. The issue today with people like Aaron is the MUSIC itself primarily. God did not and would not address this since He wishes His Word to be timeless through the centuries and for all cultures and peoples. Had he listed a style(s) it would have created a bondage that He never intended. God is way too smart for that kind of trick!

    Why is this so hard to see?
     
    #119 Daniel, Jul 28, 2005
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Your rejection of the facts changes nothing. No one starts out in the Christian faith of full age. You haven't even been saved a year.
     
    #120 Aaron, Jul 29, 2005
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