Confessions of a non calvinist.

[Timtoolman]

I find calvinism to be without love. Not just the message but the people as a whole. They seem to worship intellectalism which is so major in their lives that they try to out intellectalise, (word, I don't know) each other to the extend they come up with such stupid statements that lack all common sense. I think they do not preach the good news but spend much time on calvinism and God's wrath. And they are not churches that are really soul winning churches.
On the other hand, and I know I am going to be sorry for this, I cannot for the life of me, find a non calvinist church in my area here in Detroit that preaches the gospel like I like to hear it. Calvinist preachers seem to really be able to get into the meat, Deep into the scriptures without alot of straying from the word and context of the passage. There seem to be many men who's articles and messages I have read on-line that i would love to attend but they do not live in this area.So I am stuck in limbo wanting to belong to a church that I can serve in again.

Tim

 

[El_Guero]

Tim

I pray that Our Lord will predestine you to choose a Church where you can be part of the Body.

God bless

 

[Grasshopper]

Calvinist preachers seem to really be able to get into the meat, Deep into the scriptures without alot of straying from the word and context of the passage.

Gee, I wonder why?

 

[Bluefalcon]

I hear you, Timtoolman! God loves, saves and has chosen all who choose believe in and obey Him. I believe no one is without hope. I have found that the more people one witnesses to, the more people happen to be chosen, and although the chosen were chosen before time began, God was present in every moment of time before he created it, and therefore he knew those who believe and the wicked who don't before he made anything. The actions of those who believe in the present are of utmost importance, and, is it possible, that God will require at our hand the blood of those who die in their iniquity (Ez. 3:18)? This is scary stuff, and means our actions in the present are eternally meaningful.

 

[Pipedude]

Tim, you're marching to the beat of the same conundrum that Christians face all over the world, except (usually) in America, where we've got so many churches we can fine-tune the thermostat to our exact preferences. Find a good church and jump in there and try to make it better. Just relax and breathe slowly while the pastor calvinizes; if it's a good church, he'll be done in a minute or two and be back into the stuff you can swallow.

I speak from experience. Sometimes God's church for you isn't entirely to your liking.

 

[J.D.]

Calvinist preachers seem to really be able to get into the meat, Deep into the scriptures without alot of straying from the word and context of the passage.

Tim, you KNEW we were going to catch you on that, didn't you??

Connect the dots. There's a big picture here. Don't be afraid to look at it. There IS a reason that's true. It's one of the many things that God used to lead me into Calvinsim.

 

[Bluefalcon]

I think the direction of this thread is really sad.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I find calvinism to be without love. Not just the message but the people as a whole. They seem to worship intellectalism which is so major in their lives that they try to out intellectalise, (word, I don't know) each other to the extend they come up with such stupid statements that lack all common sense. I think they do not preach the good news but spend much time on calvinism and God's wrath. And they are not churches that are really soul winning churches.
On the other hand, and I know I am going to be sorry for this, I cannot for the life of me, find a non calvinist church in my area here in Detroit that preaches the gospel like I like to hear it. Calvinist preachers seem to really be able to get into the meat, Deep into the scriptures without alot of straying from the word and context of the passage. There seem to be many men who's articles and messages I have read on-line that i would love to attend but they do not live in this area.So I am stuck in limbo wanting to belong to a church that I can serve in again.

Tim

If I ever visit a church where the pastor gets "deep into the meat" in his sermon, I'll know he is not a good pastor. Men like that often go down deep, stay down long and come up dry. His job is not to make intellectuals out of his people, but to fit them for the service of the Lord and lead them to grow as Christians. It is not God's goal for us to be intellectuals, "deep in the Word."

"11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

 

[pituophis]

Tim,
May God richly bless you brother. But we "calvinists" do love. We love non-calvinists so much that we want them to experience the truth, because the truth will set them free. It is not wrath, but Grace....that is the Doctrines of Grace!

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by pituophis:
Tim,
May God richly bless you brother. But we "calvinists" do love. We love non-calvinists so much that we want them to experience the truth, because the truth will set them free. It is not wrath, but Grace....that is the Doctrines of Grace!

I really do not want to participate in another C vs A debate (what, about 100 this month? ), but this kind of statement always hits me the wrong way. It is as if only Calvinists knew about God's grace, and no one else had a doctrine of God's grace.

Tell you what, meet me over in the Missions/Evangelism thread and put your money where your mouth is. Calvinists, stop talking about salvation and tell me what you have actually done about it!! I never see any BB Calvinists over in that delightful thread.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by J.D.:
Connect the dots. There's a big picture here. Don't be afraid to look at it. There IS a reason that's true. It's one of the many things that God used to lead me into Calvinsim.

Okay, J. D., that's fine. Now tell me what God used to lead you to obey the Great Commission. Do you ever actually talk about salvation to sinners as well as lost people? Meet me in the Missions/Evangelism thread.

 

[Rippon]

Aren't sinners and the lost the same thing ?

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Rippon:
Aren't sinners and the lost the same thing ?

Oops! Sorry. It's late. Time to hit the sack.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by John of Japan:
If I ever visit a church where the pastor gets "deep into the meat" in his sermon, I'll know he is not a good pastor. Men like that often go down deep, stay down long and come up dry. His job is not to make intellectuals out of his people, but to fit them for the service of the Lord and lead them to grow as Christians. It is not God's goal for us to be intellectuals, "deep in the Word."

"11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

So God's goal for us is to be "shallow in the Word"? Surely not.

 

[John of Japan]

Of course not! I didn't say that! Please read more carefully.

I was talking about the pastor's sermon, not his Bible classes and not the personal study of the believer, who is a priest in Baptist doctrine.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I find calvinism to be without love. Not just the message but the people as a whole. They seem to worship intellectalism which is so major in their lives that they try to out intellectalise, (word, I don't know) each other to the extend they come up with such stupid statements that lack all common sense. I think they do not preach the good news but spend much time on calvinism and God's wrath. And they are not churches that are really soul winning churches.
On the other hand, and I know I am going to be sorry for this, I cannot for the life of me, find a non calvinist church in my area here in Detroit that preaches the gospel like I like to hear it. Calvinist preachers seem to really be able to get into the meat, Deep into the scriptures without alot of straying from the word and context of the passage. There seem to be many men who's articles and messages I have read on-line that i would love to attend but they do not live in this area.So I am stuck in limbo wanting to belong to a church that I can serve in again.

Tim

Tim,

It is difficult to find a church anywhere that gets everything right. We have lots of "country-club" churches around here, churches so shallow that you'd hardly get your shoes wet if you went there. Many churches here have a tradition of preaching the gospel" of keeping your pants long and your hair short and your music 50 years old, and just about every sermon degenerates into a rant about dress or hair or music. (Although thankfully some of those churches seem to be changing for the better.) But there aren't many churches here where you can actually discuss things like the incommunicable attributes of God without people thinking that you are nuts, and where they care enough to try to meet people's needs, but in the church and outside. I have found such a church, but it took a long time and we almost gave up and settled for less several times.

So, keep looking, and the Lord will provide a place for you to serve and grow.

P.S. - I assure you, not all Calvinists are without love, just as not all non-Calvinists are without depth.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by John of Japan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pituophis:
Tim,
May God richly bless you brother. But we "calvinists" do love. We love non-calvinists so much that we want them to experience the truth, because the truth will set them free. It is not wrath, but Grace....that is the Doctrines of Grace!

I really do not want to participate in another C vs A debate (what, about 100 this month? ), but this kind of statement always hits me the wrong way. It is as if only Calvinists knew about God's grace, and no one else had a doctrine of God's grace.

Tell you what, meet me over in the Missions/Evangelism thread and put your money where your mouth is. Calvinists, stop talking about salvation and tell me what you have actually done about it!! I never see any BB Calvinists over in that delightful thread.

</font>[/QUOTE]you have seen me! I'm calvinistic.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by John of Japan:
Of course not! I didn't say that! Please read more carefully.

I was talking about the pastor's sermon, not his Bible classes and not the personal study of the believer, who is a priest in Baptist doctrine.

You said "It is not God's goal for us to be intellectuals, 'deep in the Word.'" So please, what is the alternative?

 

[Rippon]

Scratch the Apostle Paul off the list then . He was way too intellectual . He got rather deep into doctrine . But I would not classify that as intellectualism as such .

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
Of course not! I didn't say that! Please read more carefully.

I was talking about the pastor's sermon, not his Bible classes and not the personal study of the believer, who is a priest in Baptist doctrine.

You said "It is not God's goal for us to be intellectuals, 'deep in the Word.'" So please, what is the alternative? </font>[/QUOTE]Please keep what I say in perspective. I said "intellectuals," then I put "deep in the Word" in quotes, meaning a false depth.

The Word of God distinguishes between wisdom, understanding and knowledge, often using these in the same passage. I would much rather have a pastor who is wise in the ways of the Lord than one who is intellectual and knowledgeable but does not walk with God very closely. "Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifith."

And now I must really get to bed.