confused about Calvin

Acts 4:28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

They had no choice but to crucify Christ. Was it a sin to crucify Christ? Whose sin was it?

1 Tim 2:2 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Scripture must harmonise. If we take the statement at face value then we see God is not willing that any perish.
If this is so then one must wonder what He meant when He said, But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Dt 29:4. Since all of those who were not given understanding fell in the wilderness, all but two from the Exodus, then I would wonder, if I believed God was not willing that any perish, why He didn't give them ears to hear with if He did not want any to perish? Would anyone like to address this point?

Again one wonders if God is really up to the job? After all He claims to know everything to come yet we find a God who is willing to create some people for Hell, if He knows what their choice will be then He must be willing that some go to Hell, regardless of first cause, otherwise He would not have created them. I mean if many will not repent and God knew this before He created them then He must have been willing that many perish otherwise He would not have created them to perish would He? Fine thing for Him to come along later and give us this blarney about not willing. Who's He trying to kid?

Another mysterious paradox to make the impossble possible? God is not willing but He is.

john.

 

Can you explain "WHY" God would "Judge/Condemn" a person for "committing a sin",

IF they had no "CHOICE"??

We can't correct Adam's mistake, but Jesus can/did, for the sins of the "whole world".

As I said, we aren't Judged "For being sinners", (Adam's sin) but for "remaining sinners" at Judgment,

"UNBELIEF" is the "ONLY REASON" preventing as many saved as was made sinners.

 

I have not taken the time to read all the comments. I will say that I struggled with this issue in my own life. I will say this about it: It is a destructive and divisive doctrine that needs to be buried in the graveyard of Church History.

Barry Stone

 

Can you explain "WHY" God would "Judge/Condemn" a person for "committing a sin",

IF they had no "CHOICE"??</font>[/QUOTE] That straw man is of YOUR creation. You keep stating it. We keep correcting it. You avoid the responses, counter arguments, and questions.... only to come back later to make the exact same unfounded charges.

If God had not willed to allow man to sin then man wouldn't have sinned. That is not the same as causing, forcing, or giving no "CHOICE".

If I allow my kids to eat spaghetti-o's over light carpet... that doesn't mean that I caused them to carelessly stain the carpet or that they had no choice in the matter.

That's true. We died in Adam. He separated us from God. Jesus reconciled us to God by His own power... not our goodness.

Nope. The lost are condemned already. Man is rightly condemned for his sin already... not for "remaining sinners".

Thus saith Me4Him... But the scriptures say different.

Rev 21:8"(A)But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in (B)the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the (C)second death."

In short, unbelief is "a" sin that condemns, not "the" only sin.

Want more? 1 Corinthians 6 gives a list of sins that will keep someone from being saved... and unbelief isn't listed. Same with Galatians 5.

One must believe to go to heaven... but sin is what condemns, not simply unbelief.

 

BTW, Me4Him... YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION DIRECTLY.

 

Can you explain "WHY" God would "Judge/Condemn" a person for "committing a sin",

IF they had no "CHOICE"??</font>[/QUOTE] That straw man is of YOUR creation. You keep stating it. We keep correcting it. You avoid the responses, counter arguments, and questions.... only to come back later to make the exact same unfounded charges.

If God had not willed to allow man to sin then man wouldn't have sinned. That is not the same as causing, forcing, or giving no "CHOICE".

If I allow my kids to eat spaghetti-o's over light carpet... that doesn't mean that I caused them to carelessly stain the carpet or that they had no choice in the matter.

That's true. We died in Adam. He separated us from God. Jesus reconciled us to God by His own power... not our goodness.

Nope. The lost are condemned already. Man is rightly condemned for his sin already... not for "remaining sinners".

Thus saith Me4Him... But the scriptures say different.

Rev 21:8"(A)But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in (B)the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the (C)second death."

In short, unbelief is "a" sin that condemns, not "the" only sin.

Want more? 1 Corinthians 6 gives a list of sins that will keep someone from being saved... and unbelief isn't listed. Same with Galatians 5.

One must believe to go to heaven... but sin is what condemns, not simply unbelief. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you know how to rightly divide the word, that would be a no. You see those are people not saved Scott. David was a murder and on his way too heaven. Do I need to explain further. Christains who believe still sin but it is paid for. Those verses are talking about those not saved! Shine on brother..............?

 

Man is condemned fron conception not because of anything but Adam's sin. Our sin only increases the burden.

God is Sovereign man cannot believe unless given faith Me4Him.


Hello Barry Stone nice to meet you.

What doctrine, Arminianism?

Hello Timtoolman.

Your post is confusing. What are you saying?

john.

 

Because although we can't do anything about it, we all eventually (assuming accountability) put our "stamp of approval" on sin as a general practice.

HankD

 

And all that without refuting a single, biblically determined point that I have presented. You hardly have to "divide" anything to know that man's sin is the cause of condemnation... you simply have to read and accept what the Bible says.

Yes. They were condemned already... still in their sin. Belief is the solution. Unbelief is their condition... but their sin is the basis for their rightful condemnation.

I know what those verses are talking about. However, it was not me that claimed that "unbelief" was the only reason someone didn't go to heaven.

 

I think he is mostly mad at me for opposing unions down in the politics forum... calling me things like "stupidest" and "idiot".

 

Why do you equate "goodness" with "Righteousness"??

Having the "WILL" to be "Righteous" is different than having the "Means" to be "Righteous". (fulfil the law, death)

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

We "CHOSE" to "believe/not believe" in Jesus, the spirit only calls, but "WE" make the "Decision" to accept/reject the call, many are called, but few are "Chosen", but the "CHOSEN" only become "CHOSEN" because they "Accept/believe".

When you say "God's call" is not "as Effectual" for unbelievers, you make God out to be a "lair",

1. God didn't love the whole world
2. Jesus came to "Condemn some", and not that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.
3. Jesus dying for sins of the whole world was "Worthless", since God had no intention of saving "ALL".
4. a respector of persons, (sinners)
5. God "WAS" willing for some to perish.
6. and a "Crooked Judge" operating a "Kangaroo Court", picking and choosing whom he'll free/condemn according to his "personal Predilection", rather than Judging the "guilt/innocent" (Belief/unbelief) of the person according to the law.

Our "CHOICE" is also our "Judgment", the wages of sin is death, that the "WHOLE GOSPEL" in a Nutshell.

"CHOSE ye this day", whom ye will serve.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not,
that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?

The only thing Calvin proves is an "ignorance" of the plan of salvation and especially "LAW/JUSTICE".

 

Mt 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to "YOUR FAITH" be it unto you.

30 And their eyes were opened;

These men couldn't "SEE" Jesus until they had "FAITH" in Jesus, and it's an "ANALOGY" to the plan of salvation.

"FAITH" in Jesus will come before your "EYES" will be opened to "SEE" anything in scripture.

And it's "According to your faith", (belief/unbelief) where your eyes will be opened or not.

If you don't understand the role "FAITH" plays in the plan of salvation, then you don't understand "ANYTHING".

 

And all that without refuting a single, biblically determined point that I have presented. You hardly have to "divide" anything to know that man's sin is the cause of condemnation... you simply have to read and accept what the Bible says.

Yes. They were condemned already... still in their sin. Belief is the solution. Unbelief is their condition... but their sin is the basis for their rightful condemnation.

I know what those verses are talking about. However, it was not me that claimed that "unbelief" was the only reason someone didn't go to heaven. </font>[/QUOTE]That is the pt Scott, it is unbelief that sends you too hell. See David believed and committed murder, Did He lose his salvation?

No I am not responding because you were stupid over on the other thread. I just think you are wrong.

 

Man is condemned fron conception not because of anything but Adam's sin. Our sin only increases the burden.

God is Sovereign man cannot believe unless given faith Me4Him.


Hello Barry Stone nice to meet you.

What doctrine, Arminianism?

Hello Timtoolman.

Your post is confusing. What are you saying?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]I was saying that unbelief is what sends us too hell.

 

I understand your point. It is simply contrary to the Bible.

Sin results in condemnation- not just unbelief. If unbelief were the only reason God sends creatures to hell then all of the demons and Satan himself would go to heaven... they certainly "believe".

No. As an object of God's grace and election, David repented in faith.

You didn't demonstrate that I was stupid over there... just that you were upset that I disagreed with you even though I gave good reason.

BTW, this statement goes a little further than just disagreeing with me "Do you know how to rightly divide the word, that would be a no."

Not only did you question my intelligence in the other thread, you expanded it to include my spiritual discernment here as well.

Which is fine for both forums... without resorting to personal attacks and innuendo.

FTR, I have not encountered a calvinist or a libertarian that didn't fully think their positions through before adopting them. I did- and adopted both for the same reason. I believe those positions best line up with scripture and scriptural principles.

 

Why do you equate "goodness" with "Righteousness"??</font>[/QUOTE] Why do you attempt to evade questions and cloud the issue with inconsequential quibbling over words? Saving faith neither proceeds from man's good nor man's righteousness.

Which are you saying? That goodness is not righteous or righteousness is not good?

Both are by the power of God... not the goodness or righteousness of men.

You have attempted to misuse this scripture before... and you still aren't respecting its context nor Paul's conclusion.

I am very aware of your position. I have answered each of these false arguments before... You didn't answer them then so I will agree to answer again if you will actually deal with my rebuttal rather than simply delaying and making the same poorly founded arguments later.

Nope. We simply recognize that it is not the good will or righteousness of an ungodly, unbelieving, dead in sin, already condemned human being that makes God's call "effectual".

Not a true accusation... but since you have been refuted on this before and persist in the same false accusations... why should you be answered again?

Nope. Jesus came to redeem those who the Father gave Him... because all were already condemned for their sin.

If God intended to save all then all would have been saved... thus the question I keep asking you but that you keep avoiding.

Nope. He would be a respector of persons if salvation was dependent on His recognizing the "merit" of one person's good choice... while not even seeing to it that everyone got the chance to make the choice.

Again, you've been shown that this verse is yanked out of context. You didn't answer those arguments... and probably can't. You just wait til you think the smoke has cleared and say the same thing as if the argument had never been refuted.

Again, a straw man of your creation that has been refuted repeatedly with no meaningful response from you.

Briefly, God does not pick and choose who will be condemned. All are already condemned (Read John 3 in context).

He will judge according to the law... and under the law, all should be condemned. However, by grace, He inputes the righteousness of Christ to His people... not because they were good much less "innocent" but because He so chooses according to His own good pleasure.

Show me the person born of a human father that chose not to sin... and you will have shown me the person who by his own righteousness, goodness, and/or innocence can choose salvation.

... God said to His chosen nation... to separate those who had already rebelled from the faithful.

Not proven by you. You don't answer calvinism. You create straw men, call it calvinism, then evade real debate.

Greater... much less "ignorant" men than you have recognized calvinism as the biblical gospel.

Further, this "LAW/JUSTICE" you refer to is of your design and applied to God. Not of God's design and applied to you.

Justice demands that all be condemned because all have sinned... not that all be given an "equal" opportunity for pardon because all can make the "good" decision to be righteous.

The unfortunate thing is that the only thing you have proven is that you don't understand grace- the unmerited favor of God.

 

I am sorry for not making clear which doctrine. I believe that both ought to be buried. It is high time for the church of the Lord Jesus Christ to get back to the Bible and see what God has written and therefore said. It ought to be what He says that governs our belief and doctrine not some man made theology that was began by a new believer (I am speaking of Calvinism there)!

Barry Stone

 

Spurgeon referred to calvinism as nothing less than the biblical gospel... not an idea not worthy of consideration.

The reason I came to favor calvinism's explanation is that after being taught impicit arminianism during my upbringing I was plagued by doubts. Doubts as to whether I said the right words, was sorry enough, had done enough good, had done too much bad,...

It was getting "back to the Bible" that taught me that God saved me not because of my goodness or my good choices... but because of His grace. It was not my good will that saved me and there was no goodness in me that could keep me saved. It was God's promises and Spirit.

Calvinism predates calvin by about 1400 years. He is given credit for organizing into a system the teachings of Paul and Augustine and others.

But had Calvin not written a word, the Bible would still teach man's depravity and God's sovereign grace.

 

Spurgeon referred to calvinism as nothing less than the biblical gospel... not an idea not worthy of consideration.

The reason I came to favor calvinism's explanation is that after being taught impicit arminianism during my upbringing I was plagued by doubts. Doubts as to whether I said the right words, was sorry enough, had done enough good, had done too much bad,...

It was getting "back to the Bible" that taught me that God saved me not because of my goodness or my good choices... but because of His grace. It was not my good will that saved me and there was no goodness in me that could keep me saved. It was God's promises and Spirit.

Calvinism predates calvin by about 1400 years. He is given credit for organizing into a system the teachings of Paul and Augustine and others.

But had Calvin not written a word, the Bible would still teach man's depravity and God's sovereign grace. </font>[/QUOTE]"Back to the Bible", who's Bible, God's, Calvin's???

Something as simple as God loving the world, all men being sinners/condemned, and all men being Justified through/by Faith in Jesus's coming not to condemn the world and dying for the sin of the whole world so that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, because Jesus done the "WILL OF THE FATHER" which was that none should perish.

Which you don't believe and call that "back to the Bible", "WHO'S" "Bible???

I afraid I've got "Bad news" for you,

IF you were saved because of an "irresistable call", it wasn't God voice you heard, God doesn't use his "Sovereign will" to "FORCE" anyone to be saved.

Abraham "believed" God and "IT" (his Faith) was counted to him as "Righteousness",

And it still works the same today, No faith on your part, no salvation.

Calvin only proved his ignorance of scripture.

 

I have never read Calvin's Bible... Have you? In fact, I haven't read Calvin's works at all except for quotes and excerpts. I have no particular affinity for the man or his specific works. I simply recognize that the system commonly referred to as "calvinism" and expressed generally by the acronym "TULIP" is the best explanation for biblical teachings on grace and salvation.

BTW, it's the Bible that says:

Rom 11:6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

and... 2 Tim 1:9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

and... Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You know that Bible... the one that it Ephesians one ascribes our salvation to God's good pleasure.... the one you apparently remove such passages from with a pen knife.

Just answer the question in a biblically consistent way: Can man thrwart the perfect will of God?

His perfect will by the way is expressed in scripture... like the parts when He says we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world... in case you are still confused, that was before you in your righteous goodness made your decision that allowed God to accomplish His plan.

I believe the Bible.... all of it. Not just the parts that are convenient to my grand view of man and his sovereign free will over God's plan.

I've got great news for you... it was God's voice, it was the Spirit's convicting, He wouldn't let me go,... and none of that happened because I was good in any way.

How many times must your weak arguments be answered before you stop using them as if they are some novel truth? The first mention of God interacting with Abraham is Gen 12:1 when God called Abram out. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that God called Abram because of anything other than God's own good pleasure.

Yes it does... no choosing by God, no faith.

You act as if the requirement for faith in salvation is somehow in dispute or denied by calvinism... it isn't. What is denied is that this faith ultimately comes from your goodnes, your good decision making, your good will, or your righteousness.

Wow... and such modesty you display too.