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Continential Baptist Churches

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Jeff Weaver, Oct 14, 2001.

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  1. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Hi folks

    I was poke about tonight, and found a group called the Continential Baptist Churches. Here is their web site: http://www.continentalbaptist.org/index2.html

    I haven't heard them discussed, or even mentioned here. Does any one know anything about them?

    From what I see, I wouldn't have much disagreement with them, and that would be over practice rather than theology. But then again it is 3 a.m., and I didn't read it all, so I would reserve the right to change my mind about them. ;)

    Jeff

    [ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]
     
    #1 Jeff Weaver, Oct 14, 2001
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Jeff,

    I just finished reading various articles on that website. A comment was made in one of these articles that I'd like to get your reaction to: The author stated that Primitive Baptists believe that most of mankind are of the elect, and that these will go to heaven even if they have not heard of Christ and have not come to Him by faith. Is this true?
     
    #2 Michael Wrenn, Oct 14, 2001
  3. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Michael

    I didn't see that one, so can't comment on it, not sure of the context, could you send a direct URL. But as a general principle, yes, some of us believe that it is possible for the Lord to reveal himself directly to an individual, without human intervention. They may not understand it in ways that they could explain that would make sense, but then that isn't the point, their relationship should be with God, irrespetive of their ability to understand or explain.
     
    #3 Jeff Weaver, Oct 14, 2001
  4. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Jeff,

    Below are excerpts from an article on that website; the article is entitled The Doctrine of Baptism and the Distinction of the Covenants] by Thomas Patient.

    Under the heading "This Concept HOlds That Persons May Have Eternal Life Without Union With Christ By Faith".

    Editor's Note: This is the same concept most modern American Primitive Baptists hold. They claim that most human beings are the elect of God and shall go to heaven without any faith union with Jesus Christ. That is correct, they teach that countless millions shall die and go into heaven without believing in or knowing Jesus Christ. This we hold to be the gospel of antichrist. REP)

    Under the heading of "The State of Unbelieving Jews and Gentiles".

    (Editor's Note: Most, if not all of the modern Christians, including the American Primitive Baptists, hold to this Antichristian theology which Jesus Christ condemned in the Jews. Modern Christians, including the American Primitive Baptists, maintain that faith in God , not in Jesus Christ, is what makes a person a child of God. This is why they say there are millions in heaven who have never heard of or believed in Jesus Christ. REP)
     
    #4 Michael Wrenn, Oct 14, 2001
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Jeff,

    I, too, believe it is possible for the Lord to reveal Himself directly to someone and thus save that person without human intervention; the Bible bears witness to this truth.

    The Quakers also hold this position, and, although Quakerism is diametrically opposite to Calvinism, I find it fascinating that these two groups come to the same conclusions even though based on different premises--a paradox of the faith, I guess.

    Jeff, let me ask you this: If I were to join a Primitive Baptist church, would I have to be baptized again? I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church when I was ten years old.

    Since I play guitar, and some piano, and sing and write songs, it might be difficult for me to be a Primitive Baptist, in the respect that I can't imagine not playing musical instruments when singing my songs.

    But I'm interesting in exploring this further; that's why I asked about rebaptism.
     
    #5 Michael Wrenn, Oct 14, 2001
  6. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Michael

    Thanks for the references, and the quotes. I still couldn't find it, but will look more later. Like I said in the Primitive Baptist thread, there is lots of misinformation about us out there. I would not characterize our belief as Mr. Patient did. I have no idea how he came to this conclusion that we believe such a thing, since I don't know anything about him, but it is obvious he doesn't like us very much.

    I think what most of us would say about the issue is summed up in Daniel 4:35,
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand or say unto him What doest thou?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    All I am saying, and others may view it differently, is that He [God] is able. Whether or not he does, is an entirely 'nuther discussion.

    One sorta, kinda long winded story that might be more illustrative than what I can say. This is supposedly a true story, but I wasn't there, so can't vouch for it first hand.

    There was once a Primitive Baptist barber, who was cutting the hair of a Southern Baptist preacher, and they got into a discussion of salvation.

    The Southern Baptist minister asserted that God had offered salvation to all, but that one had to believe (do something) to receive the gift. The Primitive Baptist Barber asked about infants, they couldn't give assent to their faith, and then the Southern Baptist said they were exempt because of their age. Then the Primitive Baptist asked about folks who were mentally retarded, and the Southern Baptist said they were given an exemption because of their mental state, and that they would all be in heaven. The PB barber then asked about folks who lived hundreds of years ago in lands where missionaries never reached. After all it wouldn't be their fault that they had never heard the gospel. The PB barber then asked what if the missionary didn't do a good job of explaining things, and the gospel was rejected because of the incompetence of a man. The Southern Baptist minister had no answer for that one.

    The whole point being that there are troubling issues in the minds of most people over what ever theology has to say about salvation. (Arminian, Calvinist, or somewhere in between). But as for me and my house, and I think the vast majority if not all Primitive Baptists, we will trust that the Lord is able to do his will among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth, and we are unworthy to question Him. I believe that God is able to show mercy upon whom He will. Jesus said, (John 10:29), "My Father, which gaven them [to] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

    Also, I won't quote it, but Acts 17:24-26 would seem to apply. Also John 17:2, John 15:16, and finally, one of my favorite verses

    John 6:37
    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    6:38
    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    I earnestly believe that. As for who the Father gave unto the Son, I cannot say, but trust in the promises of God and his Son that he would lose nothing. And I belive He is able to keep his promise without any help from me or anyone else.

    Hope it helps.
     
    #6 Jeff Weaver, Oct 14, 2001
  7. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Jeff, let me ask you this: If I were to join a Primitive Baptist church, would I have to be baptized again? I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church when I was ten years old. [\QUOTE]

    Yes, everyone who joins us is baptized by us.

     
    #7 Jeff Weaver, Oct 14, 2001
  8. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Jeff,

    If you want to read the article by Mr. Patient, go to the Continental Baptist website and click on the "Baptist Theology" heading on the left of the page, and then look under the "Distinctives" heading on the page that comes up. The article is extremely long; the statements I quoted-- one is halfway through the article and the other farther down than that.

    Another question: Is there no setting in which gospel songs could be played with instruments?

    I'm amazed that you would consider coming all the way to Mississippi if I were to join the Primitive Baptists; I very much appreciate your willingness to do that.
     
    #8 Michael Wrenn, Oct 14, 2001
  9. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Michael

    Thanks for the directions to that article, I found it. I also discovered that the comments in question were not by Mr. Patient, but rather by the website administrator as comments. Seems we Primitive Baptists took a lot of lumps from him, and were singled out for special criticism. It must be what he wanted to emphasize as differences between us and them. I have no clue why he chose to do that, and I don't think he understands our way of thinking. Oh well.

    As for coming to Mississippi. I suspect I could round up a couple of car loads of folks to do that. We travel extensively to meetings in other parts of the country, not unusual, but I would make a special effort, if that is the path you chose to take.
     
    #9 Jeff Weaver, Oct 14, 2001
  10. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Jeff,

    Right; the quotes are preceded by the words "Editor's note".

    Wow, a couple of carloads of people from Virginia coming to a small church in the rural Mississippi hills to see me join the PB's--amazing! [​IMG]

    I'll certainly let you know if I feel led of God in this direction.
     
    #10 Michael Wrenn, Oct 14, 2001
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I have a limited amount of correspondence with the Continental Baptist Churches, so I can't speak very authoritatively on them. But here is what I know (if I know it correctly). The Continental Baptist Churches is a small association of "Calvinistic" Baptist churches that is somewhat of an outgrowth of the revival of Calvinism among Baptist churches. They might be considered similar to the Reformed Baptists, but I would say that they emphasize BAPTIST more than the emphasize REFORMED. While most Reformed Baptists use the 1689 London Confession, the Continental Baptist Churches use the 1644 London Confession. The word "Continental" is used because it is intended to be a national association (although probably less than a dozen churches actively participate in the organized work). They say they use the word "churches" instead of "association" because they want to emphasize the integrity of the local churches rather than emphasizing an association. Continental Baptist Churches was organized in 1983.
     
    #11 rlvaughn, Oct 14, 2001
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is the same concept most modern American Primitive Baptists hold. They claim that most human beings are the elect of God and shall go to heaven without any faith union with Jesus Christ. . . [They] teach that countless millions shall die and go into heaven without believing in or knowing Jesus Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't know ANY "Reformed Baptist" that believes like the quotations in the above thread. That was mind-boggling. (I will refrain from the word "heresy" as I use it to freely, but substitute "really weird" theology)

    Jesus didn't say He was "a" way, but "the" way. Cannot imagine ANYONE believing that folks will be in heaven without repentance and faith in Jesus alone.

    Anyone else feel that this doctrinal teaching is way out of line?
     
    #12 Dr. Bob, Oct 15, 2001
  13. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner New Member

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    'Way out of line' doesn't even begin to cover that one, Dr Bob. Go ahead and use the "H" word, that's what its there for.
     
    #13 Roadrunner, Oct 15, 2001
  14. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner New Member

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    Michael [I, too, believe it is possible for the Lord to reveal Himself directly to someone and thus save that person without human intervention; the Bible bears witness to this truth.]

    RR- Who in the Bible was saved without human intervention?
     
    #14 Roadrunner, Oct 15, 2001
  15. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Paul.
     
    #15 Michael Wrenn, Oct 15, 2001
  16. Roadrunner

    Roadrunner New Member

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    Baloney! Paul heard the gospel a multitude of times from real live people.

    Who was saved totally by God- they never heard the gospel from another human but God saved them anyway?
     
    #16 Roadrunner, Oct 15, 2001
  17. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Baloney yourself!

    He might have heard it, but he only responded to the risen Lord when Christ knocked him on his ***!!!
     
    #17 Michael Wrenn, Oct 15, 2001
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    If anyone can exercise the restraint, let's not turn this into a debate of the utility of the gospel versus direction operation of the Spirit in salvation; there are other places for theological discussions. This is Denominational Discussions - so we should discuss it as it relates to the beliefs of the Continental Baptist Churches and American Primitive Baptists. No, Reformed Baptists do not believe (as far as I know) that any will be saved without faith in Christ through hearing the gospel; but, yes, many Primitive Baptists (and some other Sovereign Grace Baptists) do believe that the Spirit operates directly on the spirit of a man to regenerate him without any human instrumentality or even the hearing of the gospel. Regardless of what you might believe, these are facts regarding these groups of Baptists.
     
    #18 rlvaughn, Oct 15, 2001
  19. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Dr. Bob and Roadrunner,

    Why don't you put the charges of heresy aside and answer this question: Would a just and merciful God condemn millions who never heard of Christ to an eternity in hell because of unavoidable ignorance?
     
    #19 Michael Wrenn, Oct 15, 2001
  20. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Would a just and merciful God condemn millions who never heard of Christ to an eternity in hell because of unavoidable ignorance?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Are people lost because they are ignorant? or because they are sinners?
     
    #20 Kiffin, Oct 15, 2001
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