1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Continuation of Why Y'all Aint Calvinists thread

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Mar 5, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I trust your opinion on this, as you are an expert in the field.
     
  2. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,685
    Likes Received:
    376
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some might be "nasty", but I would say that they are angry , and they are angry as a result of their experience.

    I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church and when I heard the gospel at 17 from a relative who had recently been saved, it was for the very first time, in spite of the hundreds of masses and catechism classes I had attended. To say I was angry at the RCC for not preaching the gospel would be an huge understatement, and the outrage I felt was justified. That experience was repeated after 2+ decades of life in a shallow, wishy washy semi-Pelagian church which gave me a gospel-less "Christianity" which was nothing more than moralism. It was law-light. It was "moralistic, therapeutic, deism".

    Do I still hate what both of these places who are charged with preaching the gospel have done to me and millions of others? I do.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    551
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thus speaks the local Free-Willy.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    12,437
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do agree with your statement.

    I also believe that in the Garden Adam was mankind as a whole and we have his nature. So it is not just that Adam sinned, but also that Adam demonstrated what all of mankind would do (he showed us our natures).

    I believe that Adam was both the federal head of the human race and a demonstration or definition of what we are ontologically.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    2,833
    Likes Received:
    661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Federal Headship view (for those unfamiliar with it) means that Adam was humanities fair and just representative. He was created without sin. He had an ability no human since (save Christ) has ever had; the ability not to sin. When Adam sinner he did so federally; acting on our behalf. All of Adam's posterity were effected. While we did not commit the actual sin of Adam, it is as though we did since Adam sinned on our behalf. But lest we think we are better than Adam, we are also sinner's because of our sin. "For all have sinned" (Romans 3:23).

    As far as Adam being representative of mankind as a whole, I think that is an unnecessary distinction. He federally represented mankind through his sin, but I think that it is as far as it goes.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    12,437
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe this in part. When I responded, I mean that I agree that Adam was our federal head and a fair and just representative (federal head, but not necessarily Federal Headship view). Adam was created without sin just as we are made without sin (I do not believe that when God "knits" us in our mother's womb He weaves sin into our being). He is the representative of mankind, of the human race. I do not believe when Adam sinned his posterity was affected in an ontological sense or in a judicial sense.

    The difference is that I believe when Adam sinned he demonstrated our nature against God's demands upon us. He is, in this sense, us and therefore he represented us. I believe the same true of the headship of Christ. Christ's obedience is not attributed to us in the judicial sense, but Christ shows us who we are in Him - we walk in the Light because that is who we are.
     
  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    2,833
    Likes Received:
    661
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jon,

    This is why I am such a stickler for defining words and terms. When you said you agreed with my post about Adam being our federal head, I surmised you did not agree in the way the Reformers viewed Adam's federal headship. It is not that I am trying to put you on the spot; it is that good theology requires careful and complete vetting. For instance, I do believe Adam's sin was considered by God as an act of all people, and thus all people sinned in Adam. The converse of that is Pelagius' view that man is born tabula rasa and Adam was responsible for his own sin (although God cursed creation and humanity with death). I do not believe God "weaves sin into our being". God is not the author sin. I believe the Bible teaches that sin was imputed to humanity through Adam's disobedience. Call it a curse if you will, that is binding on Adam's posterity.

    As far as Christ, there is a distinct judicial aspect of Christ's obedience on behalf of the Elect. The Elect are declared righteous through the actions of another (alien righteousness) - Christ. This is a legal declaration. We seem to disagree on this, so it is important to bring this to the forefront. Intellectual honesty in a debate is a good thing, no?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That would be sue to you having a faulty view regarding the effects of the Fall, and on sinful human natures that we have all received as a result of that!
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So we would have received within us the same judgement of God, so we all were born in his likeness, and thus spiritually dead, sinners by nature!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We have all a nature in us, the part of that wills us to sin and disbelieve God, all are born with the natural bent to sin....
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Humans, save for jesus, are born with the nature that has us in rebellion and self willed apart from God right from the start!
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    12,437
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We would die, yes. But you are ignoring that it is appointed to men once to die and then the judgment.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus could not have the exact same human nature as we all have, as that would have meant that God would have seen Him in Adam and dead in His own sins, and not qualified to save us!
    And we cannot just refuse to sin ourselves, and to say Jesus did by just relying upon the Holy Spirit, as Jesus was/is God in human flesh, and we are not!
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God judged all of humanity to receive spiritual /physical death, and the judgement after this life is something else entirely!
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    12,437
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Provide a verse that calls nature itself sinful.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Based upon what he has posted, he severely disagrees with the reformed view on this, and the Fall effects on us...
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    24,857
    Likes Received:
    530
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wasn’t suggesting you personally had the need... rather I was sighting it in general
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    33,862
    Likes Received:
    829
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Adam sinned, became a sinner, and humans are born with sin natures now as a result...
    We are not born as blank natures, with a choice to be sinners or not!
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    12,437
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Try again (these speak of sinful flesh NOT the sin of birth...not nature itself being sin).

    And that Christ came in both the likeness of the Father and sinful flesh should have been a hint to you. (You just attributed sin to Christ or denied He is God).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...