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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, May 10, 2022.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    He was bruised FOR he was crushed FOR.
     
    #141 Reformed1689, May 12, 2022
  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    You seem to pretty much agree with their view regarding Atonement and justification though!
     
    #142 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    he died in the place of and for us!
     
    #143 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    His meaning seems to disagree with what the bible text actually states to us!
     
    #144 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Just repeating your error does not make it correct.

    Both Wright and I (and most importantly of Christianity) hold a Victorious Christ view. But I disagree with his view of Justification and atonement.

    And you KNOW this because we have had this conversation.
     
    #145 JonC, May 12, 2022
  6. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    #146 5 point Gillinist, May 12, 2022
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    By bearing our sins, Jesus had to then endure the wrath and judgement due to us as being sinners!
     
    #147 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe that God laying out iniquities on Christ refers to Christ bearing our sin bodily.

    How does that disagree with the actual biblical text?
    (It is the actual biblical text)

    You believe it means God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

    How does that agree with the actual biblical text?
    (It doesn't).
     
    #148 JonC, May 12, 2022
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus died a physical death, not a spiritual death, as that would mean he ceased being God and had to get born again!
     
    #149 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    You disagree with Psa, so where would you disagree with Wright regarding justification then?
    And you NEVER have answered on what basis can God the Father freely justify a lost sinner if no Psa?
     
    #150 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Was Jesus forsaken by the God the Father while bearing our sins?
     
    #151 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
  12. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    then start a new thread - - and you can always link this one to the new one
    also you dont have to wait for this one to close to start # 3!
     
    #152 Salty, May 12, 2022
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I lived for a time as a strict Orthodox Presbyterian and I hated it… My child died at birth and I asked an elder where the child was and I was told in hell…unless I was a member but I was not so I left them and pursued my Calvinism to a lesser degree with the Baptists. Try as I might, I could not live up to a Puritanical Model of what a true Christian was supposed to be… so maybe I’m not saved. Thank God for the Old Baptist lines who thru their explanations of scripture took me from a legalistic mindset to an unlimited Grace non conditional (not an Absoluter) position. Now I’m much happier and I no longer have a judge mental attitude toward people.

    So if my son and wife want to stay in their Pedobaptistic mode and it’s not critical to their salvation, that’s OK with me. In time and with proper exegesis they will come around…I no longer sweat it. Should someone not agree with Doctrines of Grace then OK…that’s their decision! God knows who His people are and will bring them in, either now or in time. Makes no difference.
     
    #153 Earth Wind and Fire, May 12, 2022
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    By becoming the sin bearer, would Jesus not be enduring and experiencing what we had earned in our sins, that wrath and judgement?
     
    #154 JesusFan, May 12, 2022
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Whether Christ died Spiritually depends on the definition of Spiritual death you are using. I define Spiritual death as "Separation from God." Jesus was indeed separated from His Father. In that sense, He died spiritually.
    Jesus was spiritually dead in a similar sense a totally depraved sinner is spiritually dead prior to The Holy Spirit giving life to him.
     
    #155 Reynolds, May 12, 2022
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The verses quoted do make it true, as saints from Peter on down have attested, yet you personally don't agree, which causes you to tell almost all Christendom that they are wrong.

    Can you stop deflecting and admit that you are a voice of one against everyone else?
     
    #156 AustinC, May 12, 2022
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #157 37818, May 12, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I never claimed Christ died "spiritually." Christ's soul died. Those references I gave teach so.
     
    #158 37818, May 12, 2022
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are wrong here.

    You are the one telling most of Christendom they are wrong. While those who share your faith are a very large group, they are still a minority within Christianity.

    That in itself does not make your view incorrect, but it does call into question your discernment when it comes to evaluating opposing views.

    Stop and think about it for a moment. You hold a minority view insofar as PSA. But even within that group you are a Calvinist, which makes you an even smaller minority. And among Calvinists you are a Baptist, which places you at odds with the vast majority of Christians.

    This does not make you incorrect insofar as doctrine. But it does mean you are among a small sect crying to most of Christendom that we all got it wrong.

    That is why it is difficult to take you seriously. You seem blind to the Christian faith except those who exist in your small corner of the world.
     
    #159 JonC, May 12, 2022
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We do disagree Not on those passages (I affirm those verses as well) but on what you think those passages teach.
     
    #160 JonC, May 12, 2022
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