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Contradictions in Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by ivdavid, Jan 8, 2020.

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  1. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Yes, this is true and I agree. But has my question been about man's free choices? Have I not asked about God alone and His sovereign decrees and desires within Himself? Strawman?

    My question is not about man or what man is owed or about how he is treated/judged etc. It's only about the portrait of God's consistency within Himself that I find calvinism internally contradicting.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God has decreed whom he elect are, and the remainder are permitted to stay in that state. Predestination refers to the God election in active sense his own, not in the lost sinner state.
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Monergists see similar contradictions in Synergism. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility has been debated for centuries. It is nothing new. The problem both sides have is trying to dot every "I" and cross every "T". All of us are limited by the constraints of human knowledge. Monergists look at the totality of biblical evidence and make their determination. Some passages are clear and other more obscure. The obscure ones are interpreted through the clear ones. Is it a contradiction for a Mongergist to preach the gospel to all when only the elect believe? The Monergist will tell you that God ordains the means by which he calls His elect. So, the gospel is freely proclaimed to all knowing that is God's plan. This is why Monergists do not see any contradictions in their theology.



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  4. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    I'm taking a breather here.

    If a heretic walked into church and started spouting arguments about how Jesus is not God, you know how we'd normally respond to that guy, right? If at all we engage with the guy, there definitely wouldn't be brotherly compassion - with the utmost courtesy, we'd still pounce on his every word in constant suspicion and try to correct every perceived error or misaligned thought against our own. For how could he hold any truth when he's not a brother in Christ?

    This thread and a couple others make me feel the same way - I'm not complaining, simply observing. We're 5 pages into this thread and everyone responding to my question barring @davidtaylorjr have been attacking strawman arguments. The fact that one person is at least directly engaging with the argument and that an observer too empathizes tells me it's possible to comprehend my question. I haven't set up an impossibility to debate or discuss.

    You may find my question redundant or my arguments invalid - that's fine and that's why we debate/discuss the validity of positions here - but at least in fairness, I could be granted your effort in engaging my own position than random strawmen, yes? And that would be possible if people actually listened - instead of being quick to assume what I must mean. Ask questions - I have always been willing to clarify. I will find the language to get it across to each of you if you show the willingness to cooperate likewise. This is again not said to berate anyone, lest any get defensive - this is simply my appeal for all to take a step back and engage afresh with a more relaxed vibe.

    Everyone who believes in Christ here must be passionate. We all die this very moment in our faith in Christ, we will be spending eternity together. Why then the under-the-surface suspicious hostility, just because I argue against some of your beliefs - I argue against various positions not in the least bit threatened about being wrong myself over my own position. I expect you to persuade me on my errors just as take it upon myself to share my persuasions to others. Calvinist, Arminian - in the long run, does it really matter? I am convinced both are in much truth and in some error, but I do not believe I'll be shaken if I consider your positions openly. How would this conversation play out in our living rooms with friends over coffee and board games - like this? (It's true, we did manage that once.)

    Anyway, back to the trenches, I suppose....
     
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    God controls our free choices through the reasons we base them on.
     
  6. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Both questions are based upon presupposition.
    God knew and ordained (said yes)to the fall of Adam. He did this before Creation ever took place. Therefore all humanity was predestined to the effects of the fall, the first being rebellion against God by all humanity. This means all humans are condemned by their sin.
    God chose (elected) to redeem a portion of humanity at the same time.

    God doesn't desire against His Sovereign choice. He weeps that man followed after rebellion and sin when He ordained to possibilty that mankind could rebel.
    Adam had the capacity to rebel. Adam had no capacity to invoke reconciliation. Only God has the capacity to redeem and reconcile.
     
  7. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    This is True. But I'm staying away from focusing on what's required of man - simply focusing on what God thinks, decrees, desires, does etc. by revelation. The focus here is simply that God revealed He has pleasure in the wicked turning away and living.

    How did you come to this conclusion? If you were say reading Shakespeare or Plato before visiting this thread and you came across the words "desire" and "pleasure", you wouldn't have associated the two as one implying the other at all, is it?

    I ask only because I want to draw attention to the fact that our reading Scriptures have become constrained by our theological positions rather than our positions being constrained by Scripture. John 3:16 always meant ALL the world to the lay person - calvinism runs into an issue, and 'all' has to be qualified. Why can't calvinism change to accommodate this reading of the normal ALL? Why must it come down to word definitions of something as synonymous as desire/pleasure for an entire theological framework to stand? Even John Piper concedes these verses do imply that God does desire their repentance and life - for which he then writes an entire book to try and reconcile the contradiction. My argument here is picking on what he's not addressed. I don't recollect exactly, but the title was something like Does God really want all to be saved..It's a free pdf download in case anyone's interested.

    The point is, I expected such distinctions to be made and I thought I preempted that by providing my working definition earlier. Again, I could be told this is just my opinion and then I'd labor to prove the same from Scripture. But before we begin this definition trek, would you then concede this to be an internal contradiction if I prove that desire and pleasure are meant the same in Scriptures? I'm not trying to hold you to an ultimatum, not at all - I'm simply emphasizing this is not worth it and that you should work out an explanation that does read this as being God's desire. Not the hill to die on, basically.
     
  8. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I guess you must have me on ignore. :(
     
  9. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    This post has been bothering me about the ideas your suggesting.
    Do you see the conflict you have setup?
    If God declares the elect obtain the salvation, and God knows and determines the future, then of course it is frozen forever in the decrees God made before the beginning of time. So then how can a non elect unfreeze the decree of God? You create an impossible situation where God decreed the salvation of the elect, but depending on if the non elect obey they are saved, when God already knows they won't be obedient. And now your also introducing a situation where a non elect can choose to believe by the force of their own will, and John 1 says we are not born of God by the will of man. Unless a man is born again, they will have an enduring enmity with God and Christ, and they will consider salvation in Christ foolish talking.
    Your setting up a situation that can not occur.

    Now these scriptures are important to understand as to the reason why some persons did receive Him.
    And it is not by their will, but this was by God's will that they received Him.
    Otherwise your endorsing Pelagianism. And you should look up that heresy.

    John 1
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
    11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. (the jews)
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
    13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
     
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  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you hold to Double Predestination then?
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    First the terms monergist and synergist are Calvinist invented and unbiblical terms for things that have nothing to do with Christianity.

    Self proclaimed monergist are Synergist.

    According to the order of salvation, a person MUST ACCEPT LISTENING to the gospel or else regeneration cannot take place.

    "17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."



    100 unregenerate folks.

    100 refuse to hear the gospel = 100 won't be saved. They have to make the CHOICE to hear the gospel.


    And if you ask any calvinist here......all ex christians. Where is the outsider or even the cradle calvinist?

    Where is the guy from some tribe who never heard of Jesus spontaneously CALVINIST? It never happens. Calvinist requires over the shoulder conversion. Someone has to indoctrinate you with it, you can't build it with just quoting scripture.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Lost sinners spiritual dead in their sin natures cannot just will themselves to now believe!
     
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  13. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Nope. Just realizing my memory is fallible :)
    I did like your post at the time, though - that hasn't lapsed my mind...
     
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  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Neither can ghost and spirits will themselves into human bodies as babies and breathe air. Its on you to display where GOD took away the capacity to believe.

    Your beliefs I can easily write them in one sentence, yet you believe God was so dumb and incompetent author he failed to put the point across with more than 40 thousand verses.
     
  15. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    LOL
     
  16. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    This is a nice reference. So when was the door shut on the non-elect by God - before the foundation of the world, before man's good or evil OR after man's unbelief in God?

    Because we have God in Scriptures revealing His desire for the non-elect to enter in the door and live. This would be perfectly fine if God shut the door after His expressing this conditional desire and man's rejecting it in unbelief as seen in Matt 23:37. However, this would be contradictory of God to desire them to enter the door that He has already shut before the ages. Calvinism implies that this decree was done before the ages - how does it explain away the contradiction then?
     
  17. ivdavid

    ivdavid Active Member

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    Sure, I'll clarify..I'm exclusively addressing this to the calvinists adopting their terms.

    I am arguing only against "predestined reprobation/condemnation of man".

    I do not even say there is no such thing as double predestination. I see it in some sense in the elect and non-elect angels - the non-elect angels were not provided a Savior for redemption though God knew they would fall away to their destruction. I only say there is no revelation of predestined condemnation decreed in man.

    I am also not denying "destined condemnation of man by God" - I just oppose the pre-. God does swear in His wrath to destroy and He could do so by destroying the non-elect in their sleep or by hardening them and using them as props to show forth more of His power and glory - however not pre- but after their filling up their measure of iniquity in unbelief.

    I do not argue that man must be treated better - that he's owed anything more. I do not call God unjust if He were to decree condemnation without offering redemption in a Savior - we see it with the non-elect angels. I simply am arguing for God's nature to be consistent as seen in Scriptures.


    I hold to single predestination in man. I hold to everything calvinist apart from the above doctrine and its implications. I hold to everything arminian apart from people actually being saved by self-determinism and its implications.

    Again, to be very clear, I am not arguing for a total collapse of calvinism through this. I do not see the other doctrines stand or fall on just this. If you were to say you agree with me on this posing a contradiction and therefore this particular doctrine of predestined condemnation of man needs reevaluation - this is not you saying TULIP is false. You conceding an error in this one doctrine does not make calvinism redundant where everyone must necessarily jump to arminianism or another variant - it simply opens you up to reconcile more parts of Scripture. I intend to do the same with arminianism too and show how both can be reconciled together - having the errors pruned away and uniting on the common truths in Scripture.
     
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree that there is any contradiction as I have already stated. And as far as pre being in the mix. Has God no right to make out of the same lump vessels prepared for dishonorable purposes? Vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I keep seeing here in these postings the desire to make salvation "fair", but that would be assuming that we deserved to get saved in the first place!
     
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If the 5 points of Grace are true, then we cannot reconcile cals and non cals in their salvation theology, as we both have different premises!
     
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