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Cornelius the Centurion

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by JohnB, Apr 3, 2005.

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  1. JohnB

    JohnB New Member

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    Hi RC,

    I understand your point about the Glory of God and I agree. I do not believe man has intrinsic worth, but we are given worth because God loved us enough to create a redemptive plan for us (and not angels.) To say "Because He chose to" does not answer the "why?" God did not create angels in His image. Nor did He walk in the garden with them. Angels long to understand the mysteries of the gospel given to us. The angels only know a king-subject relationship.

    I think Calvinists focus so much on the king-subject relationship, that they underplay the father-child, brotherhood (with Christ), husband-wife, family, lover imagery of the Bible. God has angels to glorify Him. He created man to live in loving fellowship with him.

    Jesus loved us enough to die for us, all of us. And since I believe He died for all mankind, while we were yet sinners, all mankind has value in God's eyes (hence the Lucado quote.)

    This view, Calvinists would say, is man-centered.
    It is, but only in the sense that God chose to make it so. I mean, the whole universe as we know it is anthropocentric, created to sustain human life. Perhaps God has a billion other worlds, and a billion other plans of redemption being played out. But as far as we know, we are it. Mankind on Earth is not a sideshow, it is in the center ring. And that is humbling, awe-inspiring and love- inspiring.

    That being the case does does not cause me to boast, because I certainly did not create the universe or plan it. And it certainly is not the way I would have done it. (Which of us would think of grace? Which of us, being God, would allow ourselves to be crucified?) But it causes me to love and glorify God all the more to think that He would do all this for us.
     
    #81 JohnB, Apr 12, 2005
  2. rc

    rc New Member

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    Mankind on Earth is not a sideshow, it is in the center ring.

    I disagree...

    The universe isn't anthrocentric.... it is theocentric.... This shows my whole point... how you look at things depending on what is your center will cause you to take things in a different perspective...

    I see the massive universe as a display of the awesomness of God and how little we are. It takes the FOCUS off of us and on HIM. You choose to make man the center of the universe might show you where your center is in you theology also.

    The heavens declare the GLORY OF GOD; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    Psalm 8:3-4 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    Psalm 57:11 Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens: let thy glory be above all the earth.

    The Mazzoroth makes man NOTHING and God everything.
     
    #82 rc, Apr 13, 2005
  3. JohnB

    JohnB New Member

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    Hi RC,
    I understand where you are coming from.

    I did want to clarify that when I said universe, I meant the physical universe, not spiritual universe. Of course, Christ is the center of all things and in Him all things are held together.

    In my opinion, Calvinists speak of man as if he is doggie doo on God's foot.

    The Bible, rather, portrays man as a lost sheep, a valuable lost coin, and most of all, as a lost son. And the father was not sitting around contemplating his glory and wealth. He was gazing longingly down the road waiting for his penitent son.

    Again, we are valuable, not on our own, but because of God's redeeming love (which I believe He extends to all men.)"God don't make no junk."
     
    #83 JohnB, Apr 13, 2005
  4. rc

    rc New Member

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    God doesn't make junk.

    He makes those he loves and will be glorified through them by their praise of His grace,

    and makes those that hate him for which He will be glorified for His justice.

    Everything has a purpose and a plan...
     
    #84 rc, Apr 15, 2005
  5. rc

    rc New Member

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    P.S.
    I WAS talking about the physical universe!

    And about men being doggie doodoo...

    I don't think so either.. BUT, he's not to thrilled about what we do...

    "All our works are as "used menstral cloths"... that's not saying we are doing to well...
     
    #85 rc, Apr 15, 2005
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    The Universe is Theocentric? How is that possible when God created it all. How can he be the center when He is greater than the whole of it?
     
    #86 Wes Outwest, Apr 15, 2005
  7. LaymansTermsPlease

    LaymansTermsPlease Member

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    Sorry if someone construes this as off topic, but the anthrocentric / theocentric talk brought this to mind immediately, so *I* think it's relevant. [​IMG]

    Wonderful song named "So Much of Me" from a group called "The Waiting"

    At the foot of the ocean
    I'm hearing winds whisper and waves shout
    The storm of the morning is clearing, the tide is running out
    I'm feeling obviously small
    A little of this sand is all I am
    A bit of dust blown from Your hand
    You made the wind, You made the sea
    Why do You make so much of me?

    You made the stars and every creature that breathes
    Why do You make so much of me?
    In the heart of the evening I'm counting the stars set in the sky
    Getting lost at a hundred or fifty or so I'm thinking
    I can only hide in some hole I carve in the earth
    What am I worth? I'm just a speck, a candle in Your universe
    And here I stand A bit of dust from Your big hand
    What am I worth? A candle in Your universe.
     
    #87 LaymansTermsPlease, Apr 16, 2005
  8. rc

    rc New Member

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    Wes... you miss the whole point !
    Everything God does is to point to Him not man!
    He made the universe to magnify His glory, not for humans to focus on themselves...

    It's the FOCUS that makes things relavent.. God wants Himself to be the focus. He wants everthing looked at STARTING from HIS perspective not ours!!

    In all your ways, acknowledge HIM!
    Do ALL to the glory of God!
    He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith!

    One with a God centered theology sees the heavens as a SMALL display of how glorious God is!

    One with a man centered theology sees the heavens as "Wow... all of this space! ... And just for us! He did this for us!

    There's a HUGE difference.
     
    #88 rc, Apr 16, 2005
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    rc,
    I think you miss judge me.

    I know that God "draws all to him" for his purpose and Glory! But we are the focus of God's effort! We are made in His image. That is not said of any other part of God's creation. The bible was not written to canines, or bovines, it is written to humans, the only of God's creation that can communicate through written word.

    Get the message?

    I am not raising man above where man belongs, simply identifying to God's glory what a marvelous creation He made! Now if you can't handle that, the problem is yours not mine!
     
    #89 Wes Outwest, Apr 16, 2005
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    To put a calvinistic twist on this, how do we know "all" means "all"? What ACTUALLY does "all" mean? Calvinists are so quick to say that whosoever and world and all don't necessarily mean that, thus should we sin to the glory of God? Kill? Rape? Murder?
     
    #90 webdog, Apr 16, 2005
  11. rc

    rc New Member

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    But we are the focus of God's effort!

    Thanks, you just made my point...
    You just made God an Idolater.
     
    #91 rc, Apr 16, 2005
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Care to explain!
     
    #92 Wes Outwest, Apr 16, 2005
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    To put a calvinistic twist on this, how do we know "all" means "all"? What ACTUALLY does "all" mean? Calvinists are so quick to say that whosoever and world and all don't necessarily mean that, thus should we sin to the glory of God? Kill? Rape? Murder? </font>[/QUOTE]You might just have the key here Webdog
     
    #93 Wes Outwest, Apr 16, 2005
  14. rc

    rc New Member

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    should we sin to the glory of God? Kill? Rape? Murder?


    I think I can honestly say that is the dumbest non-reply I've ever heard.

    God does everything for a PURPOSE. The ENDS of EVERY PURPOSE is to Glorify God. To do otherwise (doing something that gives glory to another) is IDOLATRY. EVERYTHING GOD does is GOD FOCUSED, GOD GLORIFYING and GOD EXALTING !!

    PLEASE read AT LEAST "The End for Which God Created the World" by Jonathan Edwards... it's for free !! jonathandewards.com
     
    #94 rc, Apr 18, 2005
  15. JohnB

    JohnB New Member

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    RC,
    I am going to close out my participation on this thread. But I wanted to thank you for your discourse and wish you all the best and God's blessings.
     
    #95 JohnB, Apr 18, 2005
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